Is our Forum's potential to boost up FPM's election campaign being fully exploited?

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Positive Balance

Well, is the forum meant to attract votes and convince wavering supporters, or is it to organize the existing core of FPMers? Good arguments can be made for both sides.

The forum's basic purpose should be neither. Although its existence may be useful to forward many goals as well.

With regards to your first point, most pro-FPM forumers have taken the stance that you're either with us or against us. There is no place for the undecided, neutrality does not exist, and neither does doubt. You support 100% the party and GMA, or we don't have place for your arguments here. It is harsh, yes, but somewhat understandable given the party's transition from a movement based on principles to a party based on politics. Principles are still there, but have had to be accommodating to political reality and choices.

This is an absurd justification. Principles do not take backstage by definition, and a transformation from a movement to a party do not justify rigidity of thought.

If there are people who support FPM in everything except, for instance, their position vis-a-vis HA, it becomes very difficult to discuss these choices ad infinitum as it won't ever be resolved. I don't think Joseph_Lubnan will ever be convinced that allying with HA is the best choice for FPM, but this is a strategic decision the party made which it can't go back on now.

The fact that a decision has been made, doesn't make it beyond discussion or criticism, and it certainly doesn't render the related topic irrelevant. Choices and decisions define who people and parties are and what they stand for.

What I will say is that the developments you highlight in your post have been happening for more than just a few months, but rather a few years by now. A lot of people you describe as somehow in the middle have left, people with an open mind and, above all, a penchant for questioning things intelligently. The average level of discussion has sunk quite a bit, with only a few really respectful discussions going on where differences of opinions are debated in a civil way. It's a shame. But what to do? It's not the party, just a forum, right?

Censorship certainly wont help in this matter. It will further excaerbate it.

If its "just a forum", then its OK not to hold it to the proper standards? Besides much of the argument here revolve around using this forum as a tool inseparable from the party's goal, do you see the contradiction?

Finally, as for how to approach the so-called independents, it appears many FPMers on the forum implicitly believe that the cost of allowing open debate on every contentious choice made by the party is too high, and therefore the potential loss of some of these votes is a better alternative to fracturing the party through trying to accommodate everyone's interests. That's fair enough, of course. Personally, I've always believed that having 1 critical thinker playing devil's advocate and reflexively questioning the party, its leadership, and its decisions is more useful than 10 die-hard, no questions asked, orange-flag waving FPMers. But I understand there are limits to this, especially when going into an election, when a party must show unity above all. Furthermore, there aren't really many alternatives to FPM, which is why a lot of the so-called independents keep coming back to the Orange Room despite all the complaining they do here!

Its a slippery slope when people start talking about the cost of allowing freedom of expression, and worse yet, measuring what to allow by the perceived impact on votes.

---

Anyway, I consider myself somewhat accurately described by your post, but I have to say that in the time I've spent on this forum I've come to understand and trust FPM and FPMers, and partially also understand the less desirable behavioral changes (e.g. with us or against us attitude, your ally is a bigger thief so we are clean, etc.) in light of the low level of accusations they are always having to deal with. I am still not a huge fan of HA, but I do think FPM's alliance with them can become useful. There are a number of other issues I don't fully agree with, but then again, let's give FPM a chance in power and see how they do.

One should not be willing to look the other way when it comes to the behavior you describe above. We should call it as we see it.

[Red Phoenix]

this forum is the online home of a lot of ppl from alot of places, ppl need to learn to live with that fact.

i dont have to change my attitude to appease someone else nor does anyone else needs to change his attitude to appease me.

take it or leave it. this is how the forum is.

the last thing on earth i want to see is someone trying to make this forum the official mouthpiece of fpm.

plus, i don't expect all fpmers to remain on the intellectual side when this forum is also littered with spammers.

c'est la vie.

the equation here has just too many factors to try to reign over, even the mods fail miserably sometimes when they try their best to shape the spirit of this forum.

so sometimes things developed positively, sometimes it does not.

some ppl want this forum as a platform for rumination while others want it for fun and others find it a perfect bashing podium.

that's what is attractive about it. although a lot of ppl get bored sometimes u can't always appease everybody.

i’m one of those bored ppl and i have some stuff i don’t like here, but who cares really. this is still my online home cuz of the variety and level of freedom i find here.

again, take it or leave it.

this forum is moody as much as i am myself moody.

as for undecided ppl looking to get convinced, there are a lot of nice members here who will be happy to oblige them 24/7, and if they meet someone they can’t stand then they should happily use the ignore button without all the mexican soap opera drama.

[hannaalsayssa]

JL
you talk about censorships

wlek i can not even register with sa3doun site anymore?????
couple of posts and mellow nes and i was banned...

the freedom you get at Forum is unprecedented.

[Positive Balance]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

This is an absurd justification. Principles do not take backstage by definition, and a transformation from a movement to a party do not justify rigidity of thought.

I don't justify rigidity of thought. I explain why a transition from an extra-political movement to a political party makes it more difficult to retain all the idealism. This is true in any political party anywhere in the world. In fact, it's true in any transition from an opposition party to power (it's much easier to be principled when you're outside of power).

What I believe FPMers are struggling with is that they wish to have their cake and eat it too: they want to keep believing that FPM has not given up one inch of its moral high ground, while also having become a key political player that has to make decisions based in part on expediency rather than only on principle.

The fact that a decision has been made, doesn't make it beyond discussion or criticism, and it certainly doesn't render the related topic irrelevant. Choices and decisions define who people and parties are and what they stand for.

Censorship certainly wont help in this matter. It will further excaerbate it.

I agree. And I already said I have also been uneasy since the beginning about the alliance with HA. Plus look at the contributions I made in the censorship thread a while back... I couldn't agree more on the censorship issue.

Please read my post more carefully though, as I never intended to justify censorship. Hell, if you read the second-to-last paragraph I even say that the best thing for FPM to cherish is people who are willing to constantly question the party rather than accepting everything... This is not consistent with me advocating censorship.

Its a slippery slope when people start talking about the cost of allowing freedom of expression, and worse yet, measuring what to allow by the perceived impact on votes.

Read what I wrote again. My point is the following: the party has made a few choices that some of us don't agree with, for example the alliance with HA. There are others within the party that do agree with it, and there are various justifications given for why it was a good strategic choice. No matter how many threads are made about the issue, people aren't budging. In other words, the implicit decision is that losing the trust of those people that stop supporting FPM because of the alliance with HA is worth the benefits that this alliance has allegedly brought.

Once again, I never ever said that I agree with the conclusions of this logic, just that I understand it.

One should not be willing to look the other way when it comes to the behavior you describe above. We should call it as we see it.

Look, I've always been clear on the censorship issue. I don't agree with it. Coincidentally, a post I made a few days ago on this very issue got deleted because it was "off-topic"; ironic, no? A post about censorship getting censored.

[Positive Balance]

Originally Posted by hannaalsayssa

JL
you talk about censorships

wlek i can not even register with sa3doun site anymore?????
couple of posts and mellow nes and i was banned...

the freedom you get at Forum is unprecedented.

OK I have to say it: this moral relativism is truly sickening. Does the fact that others do something ever make it right for you to also do it (but less)? Seriously! Stop justifying everything by pointing at your opponents and saying "but they are worse."

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Loooool....Who's imposing anything on anyone?

Dude,you're too busy trying to distort what i'm saying lately...Try to relax sometimes.Quelle mauvaise foi!

I'm talking about a very specific matter and in no way anything i'm saying can be attached to your delusional impression of censure.(Unless you're just trying to sound smart)

North Korea?...Oh peuliiize...Why not simply Syria...It's closer and it makes you sound more credible...at least to the loyalists.

PS:Being coherent is, while claiming to be part of a group,fighting with it for the same strategic goals,being capable of showing a minimum of trust,support and solidarity with its members,despite the differences.Can't you criticize without being coherent at the same time?

Obviously not.Because you clearly think that criticism and solidarity are exclusives of each others!

ma badda hal add Mr. Sandal,

I think you got my point. There is no solidarity when you don't show basic respect for other peoples' opinions. When you try to bully even activist FPMers (!!) (I'm not even talking about members who are not FPMers), it is evidence of extreme narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

Who are you solidary with? Just those who agree with your narrow point of view? Because evidently you are not even solidary of those who are within the opposition who don't exactly agree with you.

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Lallous

You're hired. Sign here Thank you for being a positive balance as always

Members either lack maturity or commitment. Once you get a combination of both, you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, this pool of members that got both is decreasing to many reasons and I doubt it's about the forum itself.

"many reasons"? If you doubt this is about how the forum is run, what are these alternative reasons that you are vague about? Please share with us so we can discuss and address the issue.

Way to insult the majority of forum members by calling them immature and lacking commitment by the way.

Originally Posted by Lallous

Enno, at some point, I can more then understand if someone drops out a forum he has been visiting for 4-5 years, life doesn't revolve around the forum. We hope that someone else will take the lead and life goes on.
As for those who complain for the closure of some threads, deal with it. Mich kil ma da2 el kouz bel jarra about HA, this forum has to become a plateform of battleground for pro-and con HA. We are more then sick of hearing the same arguments of bs from the same members on both parts, w ba3den ? If you are so fond to discuss each small issue of HA's moves, you could join their forum.

This is in line with the totalitarian model described earlier. Inta mat fakker, ne7na men fakker 3annak is what you're saying. It is the view that the agenda of discussion must be set from above, and that the members are supposed to adhere to, with discipline and with a smile; as opposed to letting the members themselves freely discuss topics of their choosing.

Originally Posted by Lallous

This is FPM's forum and it is made to promote its ideas, activities, principles, program, vision, etc. This is a decision that has been taken some time ago and we have no problem whatsoever applying it in a drastic way.

Finally, a bit of clarity and honesty! I'm glad you acknowledge your totalitarian penchant.

Originally Posted by Lallous

Even though, we can't hide the fact that a chunk of our Lebanese politics revolve around HA, in no way, it could justify the disproportionnate level of flood we have witnessed in the last period or so. Call it thought control, call it censure, call it whatever you want, members will nag a little and would readapt eventually.
I've opened a thread a while ago about the Lebanese priorities and most of the members considered HA/defence strategy wasn't their primary concern and I've yet to see any member opening a thread about these priorities. Typical Lebanese, first to nag and least to act. Positive Balance for instance opened a thread about economy, no one gave a d*mn.

Actually, the thread PB opened (if you had bothered to read it) was exclusively directed to FPMers, and even more particularly FPM insiders, i.e. people like you: FPM economic manifesto

Since you are obviously not a typical Lebanese that's "first to nag and least to act" as opposed to the rest of us immature and uncommitting simpletons, in addition to being an FPMer and an FPM insider (as a member of an official FPM organization), I am sure we will be seeing your contribution in PB's thread shortly. I look forward to it.

It's an interesting topic indeed, and like PB, I would really be interested to get an answer to his/her questions. My opinion is that these questions overlap with what I said in the the thread "Where does FPM stand in the political spectrum?"(Where does FPM stand on the political spectrum?) In short, FPM's policies (including economic ones) are just whatever Michel Aoun thinks they should be, as there is no framework for policy-making.

PS: PB, I don't mean to drag you into anything you don't want to participate in. I just thought someone should reply to Lallous' gem of a post

Originally Posted by Lallous

As for Bookayasha, soon enough you will see many things changing. We have only been waiting for the candidates and the political alliances and lists to be announced to start promoting them. The complete program should be out on May 7th so we would get some substance to discuss about. Make initiatives for God's sake and stop tonzir. (Not addressing you specifically by the way. :P)

Again in line with the totalitarian model of waiting for the topics of discussion to trickle down from above, incidentally exactly the opposite of "making initiatives", and contrary to FPM's essence, which is bottom-up activism.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Souss

ma badda hal add Mr. Sandal,

I think you got my point. There is no solidarity when you don't show basic respect for other peoples' opinions. When you try to bully even activist FPMers (!!) (I'm not even talking about members who are not FPMers), it is evidence of extreme narrow-mindedness and intolerance.

Who are you solidary with? Just those who agree with your narrow point of view? Because evidently you are not even solidary of those who are within the opposition who don't exactly agree with you.

Dude,I got your point and you missed your target royaly.

Your point is obviously something related to my personal character and style, and not to what i was saying earlier.So next time,when you want to say something,have the decency and the honesty to say it straight to the person.I'm a coll guy,and i don't bite.

But do not just quote someone,then distort his words,in order to try to score points,not in favor of an idea,but against his own person.

Now that i said that,i have yet to make something straight:The way i speak with this or that member is neither your concern,nor anybody else's concern.As long as i'm respecting the rules of the forum,you just have to live with that.

I took a lot of insults and bullying and bashing from a lot of people,some like you, over the years,and i'm still ready to discuss anything with anyone.My tone only varies according to the tone of the opponent.You respect me,i respect you.You attack me,I counter-attack.Those are my rules.This is my style.But the choice is yours.

You don't like it?That's your problem,not mine.I too don't like hypocrites and people of "mauvaise foi",yet i still keep discussing,and never complain.

Now that we've done discussing my style,let's get back to the topic of this thread,will you.And please,spare us your condescending tone.It translates more disrespect and intolerance than few occasional harsh words.And it only shows that you take yourself too seriously.Relax.

[Lallous]

Originally Posted by Souss

"many reasons"? If you doubt this is about how the forum is run, what are these alternative reasons that you are vague about? Please share with us so we can discuss and address the issue.

Way to insult the majority of forum members by calling them immature and lacking commitment by the way.

You are begging the question. Lack of personal time is the most important one obviously. Professional work, studies, extracurricular activities, etc. I mean many who keep comebacking here after all these years are driven by boredom in our dull host countries. I don’t know where you got the lack of commitment as an insult, all I say that’s perfectly understandable as nothing is biding them to contribute actively and I am only stating as a fact. As for the maturity, I think this is related to Lebanese politics in general and each side has its side of za22ifeh. Meanwhile you can’t advocate an elitist forum with only high level discussions, you have to deal with them and the forum’s level will be therefore affected.

This is in line with the totalitarian model described earlier. Inta mat fakker, ne7na men fakker 3annak is what you're saying. It is the view that the agenda of discussion must be set from above, and that the members are supposed to adhere to, with discipline and with a smile; as opposed to letting the members themselves freely discuss topics of their choosing.

Oh so much for a drama queen. Dude, it’s all about one restless dude who has made it his complex to always keep reviving threads with copy-pasting articles with no-added value for the already present discussion. Bear with us for not letting him spamming the forum with 10’s of threads about the same subject, as bil mayteh, you have always 2-3 active topics about HA. So if you call it censorship, I call it giving everything its proportionate weight.

Finally, a bit of clarity and honesty! I'm glad you acknowledge your totalitarian penchant.

Live with it as you won’t change it.

Actually, the thread PB opened (if you had bothered to read it) was exclusively directed to FPMers, and even more particularly FPM insiders, i.e. people like you: FPM economic manifesto

Since you are obviously not a typical Lebanese that's "first to nag and least to act" as opposed to the rest of us immature and uncommitting simpletons, in addition to being an FPMer and an FPM insider (as a member of an official FPM organization), I am sure we will be seeing your contribution in PB's thread shortly. I look forward to it.

It's an interesting topic indeed, and like PB, I would really be interested to get an answer to his/her questions. My opinion is that these questions overlap with what I said in the the thread "Where does FPM stand in the political spectrum?"(Where does FPM stand on the political spectrum?) In short, FPM's policies (including economic ones) are just whatever Michel Aoun thinks they should be, as there is no framework for policy-making.
PS: PB, I don't mean to drag you into anything you don't want to participate in. I just thought someone should reply to Lallous' gem of a post

I will answer the first part as the second part isn’t directed to me personally and I can find myself very much agreeing with what you said but that’s not the point. I don’t know if I should be flattered or not by giving me so much credit. I thought you ought to know since you have been on this forum for 4 years, that in no way, any member of the staff represents FPM. You obviously must know that many regular members hold much higher position within the party than me. Nobody is appointed by FPM in here and these staff members that you never deemed to be grateful for their work and even taking pleasure in attacking them personally, while obviously missing the point that what they are doing this as volunteer work. At some point, these staff members chose to step up among the bunch doing a job with very tight manoeuvring framework. You could get back to PB’s post and could easily say that opposing and criticizing when not in power is the easiest thing to do. Yet, I chose to answer you when I could have chosen to disdain your claims only to show you my good willing.

Again in line with the totalitarian model of waiting for the topics of discussion to trickle down from above, incidentally exactly the opposite of "making initiatives", and contrary to FPM's essence, which is bottom-up activism.

It’s a calculated choice that had to be made as described by PB’s post. We won’t waste much effort to satisfy each member’s pleasures as the aim of this forum as a tool remains dynamic in itself. Initiatives could be done accordingly. Now it’s elections time.

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Lallous

You are begging the question. Lack of personal time is the most important one obviously. Professional work, studies, extracurricular activities, etc. I mean many who keep comeback here after all these years are driven by boredom in our dull host countries. I don’t know where you got the lack of commitment as an insult, all I say that’s perfectly understandable as nothing is biding them to contribute actively and I am only stating as a fact. As for the maturity, I think this is related to Lebanese politics in general and each side has its side of za22ifeh. Meanwhile you can’t advocate an elitist forum with only high level discussions, you have to deal with them and the forum’s level will be therefore affected.

Sure lack of time is a contributor, but I don't believe the reasons you gave are the right ones. We are all busy, it's just that some of us choose to make the time for the forum, while others (the overwhelming majority) don't. Why is that? Are they busier than you and me? I highly doubt it. They just don't have enough incentive to come, IMO because they are not given basic respect. That's something that is easily destructive for the forum image, and difficult to restore. The evidence is there in the mod forum for you to see, and through your access of deleted posts.

Originally Posted by Lallous

Oh so much for a drama queen. Dude, it’s all about one restless dude who has made it his complex to always keep reviving threads with copy-pasting articles with no-added value for the already present discussion. Bear with us for not letting him spamming the forum with 10’s of threads about the same subject, as bil mayteh, you have always 2-3 active topics about HA. So if you call it censorship, I call it giving everything its proportionate weight.

First, it's not your place to judge which threads add value and which don't.

Second, contrary to what you are trying to suggest, this has little to do with JL or HA. The Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah unveils Hezbollah's candidates for the elections, where JL had minimal participation, was closed.

Same for the why has fpm no real standing in the sunni street? thread (a crucial question; if there's a thread that adds value, it's this one), which had nothing to do with HA.

Originally Posted by Lallous

Live with it as you won’t change it.

Good. Now members know that everytime unfair actions are taken on the forum, they are aware that you are a full supporter and participant of such actions, and that you don't hesitate to use your position of privilege to taunt them.

As a side note, members have been living with it for years, and they have changed it. Here's an interesting exercise for you: Check the archives of the forum and look at how it evolved since its inception in 2004. You can also look at how many members used to be banned then, and compare to now. You will find that the level of member coercion and bullying has drastically diminished since. And that's in great part (but not only) because regular members and staff members actively pushed for it.

Again, you can look at the threads in the mod forum for evidence of this.

Originally Posted by Lallous

I will answer the first part as the second part isn’t directed to me personally and I can find myself very much agreeing with what you said but that’s not the point. I don’t know if I should be flattered or not by giving me so much credit. I thought you ought to know since you have been on this forum for 4 years, that in no way, any member of the staff represents FPM.

Really Dude, I don't know if you know, but you work for tayyar.org. The URL for this forum is forum.tayyar.org.

You want to stand here and deny you are an FPMer (the target of PB's thread) , and deny that you are part of an official FPM organization, despite the overwhelming and public evidence, be my guest.

Originally Posted by Lallous

You obviously must know that many regular members hold much higher position within the party than me. Nobody is appointed by FPM in here and these staff members that you never deemed to be grateful for their work and even taking pleasure in attacking them personally, while obviously missing the point that what they are doing this as volunteer work. At some point, these staff members chose to step up among the bunch doing with very tight manoeuvring framework.

Actually I did recently thank the team, incidentally in a reply to you in a thread you opened (which you don't seem to have read more than you did PB's thread): Change and Reform for the...Forum!

Thanks for the speech about staff members, but I was a member of the staff for a while, in several functions, back when the forum was not officially the FPM forum and you could correctly claim that you don't represent FPM.

There were some fantastic team members, others less fantastic We did many positive things, you can check my and others' threads and posts in the mod forum, if they haven't been deleted. I also witnessed first-hand the bullying by regular members and staff members, which is also well documented in the mod forum.

I never felt the need to rabbi7 the members jmileh, or tell them they should be grateful. This was time and effort that I consciously chose to spend as a staff member, so if anything I should be grateful for the opportunity to make a positive difference. I felt we should be at the members' service and not the other way around.

Obviously, you think otherwise.

Originally Posted by Lallous

You could get back to PB’s post and could easily say that opposing and criticizing when not in power is the easiest thing to do. Yet, I chose to answer you when I could have chosen to disdain your claims only to show you my good willing.

Originally Posted by Lallous

It’s a calculated choice that had to be made as described by PB’s post. We won’t waste much effort to satisfy each member’s pleasures as the aim of this forum as a tool remains dynamic in itself. Initiatives could be done accordingly. Now it’s elections time.

Sounds fancy and sophisticated, but means nothing. Dommage.


Abou Sandal, I understand why you would want to make this a discussion about style, but it isn't. I don't mind your style. I just find you write some nonsense that should be exposed and responded to.