Is our Forum's potential to boost up FPM's election campaign being fully exploited?

[Positive Balance]

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

As I’ve roamed from thread to thread and participated in various discussions, I have come across the presence of numerous members who criticized FPM but who weren’t on the 14ers side either. I have also come across some FPMers who were feeling that the leadership is making wrong decisions and had decided to criticize those decisions. I have come across people who didn’t understand what they were talking about and sought other members’ help in order to get the picture.

However, to my biggest disappointment, I have come across even more FPMers (or Pro-FPMers) who blindly jump to a bashing bloodbath and don’t realize that this forum constitutes one of FPM’s most powerful platforms to promote its ideas and principles. It is an opportunity to convince the undecided, it is a space to share our views, even if those ideas contradict with what the leadership had said. We are very close to election date and you must realize that if it weren’t for a small handful of articulate and eager-to-convince FPMers on this forum, this platform would lose a lot of its meaning (converting non-FPMers).

Well, is the forum meant to attract votes and convince wavering supporters, or is it to organize the existing core of FPMers? Good arguments can be made for both sides.

With regards to your first point, most pro-FPM forumers have taken the stance that you're either with us or against us. There is no place for the undecided, neutrality does not exist, and neither does doubt. You support 100% the party and GMA, or we don't have place for your arguments here. It is harsh, yes, but somewhat understandable given the party's transition from a movement based on principles to a party based on politics. Principles are still there, but have had to be accommodating to political reality and choices.

If there are people who support FPM in everything except, for instance, their position vis-a-vis HA, it becomes very difficult to discuss these choices ad infinitum as it won't ever be resolved. I don't think Joseph_Lubnan will ever be convinced that allying with HA is the best choice for FPM, but this is a strategic decision the party made which it can't go back on now.

What I will say is that the developments you highlight in your post have been happening for more than just a few months, but rather a few years by now. A lot of people you describe as somehow in the middle have left, people with an open mind and, above all, a penchant for questioning things intelligently. The average level of discussion has sunk quite a bit, with only a few really respectful discussions going on where differences of opinions are debated in a civil way. It's a shame. But what to do? It's not the party, just a forum, right?

Finally, as for how to approach the so-called independents, it appears many FPMers on the forum implicitly believe that the cost of allowing open debate on every contentious choice made by the party is too high, and therefore the potential loss of some of these votes is a better alternative to fracturing the party through trying to accommodate everyone's interests. That's fair enough, of course. Personally, I've always believed that having 1 critical thinker playing devil's advocate and reflexively questioning the party, its leadership, and its decisions is more useful than 10 die-hard, no questions asked, orange-flag waving FPMers. But I understand there are limits to this, especially when going into an election, when a party must show unity above all. Furthermore, there aren't really many alternatives to FPM, which is why a lot of the so-called independents keep coming back to the Orange Room despite all the complaining they do here!

---

Anyway, I consider myself somewhat accurately described by your post, but I have to say that in the time I've spent on this forum I've come to understand and trust FPM and FPMers, and partially also understand the less desirable behavioral changes (e.g. with us or against us attitude, your ally is a bigger thief so we are clean, etc.) in light of the low level of accusations they are always having to deal with. I am still not a huge fan of HA, but I do think FPM's alliance with them can become useful. There are a number of other issues I don't fully agree with, but then again, let's give FPM a chance in power and see how they do.

[Allah wo Berri]

well as a supporter of AMAL party am surprised to see FPM supporters attacking us in this time , we may disagree in a lot of things, bas but u ddnt find a better timing than this critical time. am surprised wala.

[BEAST]

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

Dear FPMers and friends,

I’ve been a regular guest of this forum for the past 5 years or so. The decision to register as a member has no specific reason behind it and only occurred last month. This is my first thread and I would like to seize the opportunity to send out a message to some of you. ‘You’ means those who really care about FPM and about the opposition’s win in the upcoming elections.

As I’ve roamed from thread to thread and participated in various discussions, I have come across the presence of numerous members who criticized FPM but who weren’t on the 14ers side either. I have also come across some FPMers who were feeling that the leadership is making wrong decisions and had decided to criticize those decisions. I have come across people who didn’t understand what they were talking about and sought other members’ help in order to get the picture.

However, to my biggest disappointment, I have come across even more FPMers (or Pro-FPMers) who blindly jump to a bashing bloodbath and don’t realize that this forum constitutes one of FPM’s most powerful platforms to promote its ideas and principles. It is an opportunity to convince the undecided, it is a space to share our views, even if those ideas contradict with what the leadership had said. We are very close to election date and you must realize that if it weren’t for a small handful of articulate and eager-to-convince FPMers on this forum, this platform would lose a lot of its meaning (converting non-FPMers).

I urge you to stress the important facts (electricity, corruption, parking lots, social security, fuel prices, everything that is related to our everyday life etc.). The lebanese electorate has unfortunately showed that it had a very short memory (Cf.2007 by-elections and our slight victory over Amine Gemayel). I urge you to choose sound arguments and to stop the relentless attacks and labelling of fellow members whose political affiliation is sometimes unidentified. (Some of the examples include the classic “you won’t vote FPM eh 3omrak ma tsawwit” or “you think we’re mistaken eh la *****”)

I have personally had some squabbles even with FPMers on this forum but I had realized that it was their regular stance so as to seek personal attacks when feeling cornered.
I am not here to complain about it. I am not here to complain about the members who are behaving like that. It is not about giving lessons, I am just trying to remind some of you of the necessity of convincing arguments, because to be honest, this had made me feel sorry about the negative effects it had on FPM's "convertible targets" and I thought maybe a small reminder could help trigger some positive reactions.

My final shout would go for this: Respect your fellow members, respect your allies (tashnag etc.) and just give a look to how many people and visitors on this forum are reading your posts per day to realize that YOU ARE ABLE to convince those readers of your point of views and that you will hopefully contribute to the big win on June 7th.

Cheers.

Great thread Booya. about the forum and optimizing its usage, well, there's one thing i can say. a couple months back, X started a thread that was probably entitled "convince me to vote for the opposition" or sth like that, which was, in my opinion, one of the best threads that have ever been started. now what i suggest is opening a similar thread where all not only the undecided people but FPMers who have honest, serious inquiries can raise these inquiries and get REAL FPMERS to answer them. i think that this could be a major step we can take before the elections, especially for those whose voice is not being heard.
Cheers

[Abou Sandal]

Guys believe me,

The first thing to do,if we want to explain our positions and policies to the undecided voter and/or try to convince him to vote for us,is to show him unity,dedication and solidarity,among our ranks.

Without those,a third person,(the undecided voter), would never bother to even think to vote for any of us.

No one in his right mind would accept to invest in a team,that does not have a minimum of consistency,and whose players don't show a minimum of respect and support for each others.No matter the eventual differences.

If we can't show how much united we are,how could we possibly preach for unity for the whole country?

Voters need to see in us reliable persons,honest brokers,faithful partners,capable of differing and discussing freely any issue without taboos,yet capable also capable to put aside our differences when the time for work comes.

Voters need to see that we are capable of widening their horizons and perspectives.

We all need to know,and remember, that there is time for criticism and time for commitments.

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Booyakasha

Dear FPMers and friends,

I’ve been a regular guest of this forum for the past 5 years or so. The decision to register as a member has no specific reason behind it and only occurred last month. This is my first thread and I would like to seize the opportunity to send out a message to some of you. ‘You’ means those who really care about FPM and about the opposition’s win in the upcoming elections.

As I’ve roamed from thread to thread and participated in various discussions, I have come across the presence of numerous members who criticized FPM but who weren’t on the 14ers side either. I have also come across some FPMers who were feeling that the leadership is making wrong decisions and had decided to criticize those decisions. I have come across people who didn’t understand what they were talking about and sought other members’ help in order to get the picture.

However, to my biggest disappointment, I have come across even more FPMers (or Pro-FPMers) who blindly jump to a bashing bloodbath and don’t realize that this forum constitutes one of FPM’s most powerful platforms to promote its ideas and principles. It is an opportunity to convince the undecided, it is a space to share our views, even if those ideas contradict with what the leadership had said. We are very close to election date and you must realize that if it weren’t for a small handful of articulate and eager-to-convince FPMers on this forum, this platform would lose a lot of its meaning (converting non-FPMers).

I urge you to stress the important facts (electricity, corruption, parking lots, social security, fuel prices, everything that is related to our everyday life etc.). The lebanese electorate has unfortunately showed that it had a very short memory (Cf.2007 by-elections and our slight victory over Amine Gemayel). I urge you to choose sound arguments and to stop the relentless attacks and labelling of fellow members whose political affiliation is sometimes unidentified. (Some of the examples include the classic “you won’t vote FPM eh 3omrak ma tsawwit” or “you think we’re mistaken eh la *****”)

I have personally had some squabbles even with FPMers on this forum but I had realized that it was their regular stance so as to seek personal attacks when feeling cornered.
I am not here to complain about it. I am not here to complain about the members who are behaving like that. It is not about giving lessons, I am just trying to remind some of you of the necessity of convincing arguments, because to be honest, this had made me feel sorry about the negative effects it had on FPM's "convertible targets" and I thought maybe a small reminder could help trigger some positive reactions.

My final shout would go for this: Respect your fellow members, respect your allies (tashnag etc.) and just give a look to how many people and visitors on this forum are reading your posts per day to realize that YOU ARE ABLE to convince those readers of your point of views and that you will hopefully contribute to the big win on June 7th.

Cheers.

Thanks for this thread Booya,

There is a dominant view among the managers of this forum that its mission is to be a propaganda tool for FPM, as opposed to the more "traditional" view of what a forum should do, which is to be a place where people can freely discuss ideas.

The 2 natural results are that this forum:

1. Encourages bashing of the other side, preferably in a reactionary, knee-jerk fashion.
2. Limits any criticism (both legitimate and not legitimate) of FPM and its allies.

It can happen directly, whereby staff members will delete or close threads that don't fit the profile, as soon as they start feeling that they are "losing control" over the message, i.e. the forum is straying away from its primary mission; or indirectly whereby members who don't adhere to the 2 principles above are bullied or allowed to be bullied by other members. The result is (by design), a place that is more favourable to extreme views rather than moderate ones.

So is the forum boosting FPM's campaign? It is among reactionaries and extremists (very limited potential IMO, since they are already "sold" to FPM), but it's doing the opposite with moderates and reasonable people, who IMHO are the vast majority of people. There are countless examples of members who have joined this forum only to be quickly disillusioned or turned off. It's not by chance that even though the number of members of the forum has grown and continues to grow, you don't see much of a diversity of views. Hopefully with members like yourself and others, this can change.

The forum administration ascribes to the business-as-usual Lebanese view (it's never been anything else in Lebanon since 1943) that in order to reach your political goals, you need to marginalize or suppress those who don't agree with you, which of course is not sustainable in the long run. What's ironic is that FPM itself a living example that this is not sustainable and doesn't work, yet it is going down the same path.

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Guys believe me,

The first thing to do,if we want to explain our positions and policies to the undecided voter and/or try to convince him to vote for us,is to show him unity,dedication and solidarity,among our ranks.

Without those,a third person,(the undecided voter), would never bother to even think to vote for any of us.

No one in his right mind would accept to invest in a team,that does not have a minimum of consistency,and whose players don't show a minimum of respect and support for each others.No matter the eventual differences.

If we can't show how much united we are,how could we possibly preach for unity for the whole country?

This is all untrue.

While coherence and discipline is important to have within the ranks of the people who are running for election, and arguably within any organization, it is absolutely not the case for a discussion forum. In fact it's quite the contrary. Members of a forum are not meant to be a coherent organization, they are meant to take advantage (if that's their choice) of a free place to openly discuss ideas.Whatever coherence that comes out of it will come from the members' free will, and not be imposed from above.

What you are preaching is a North Korea style model, where we all execute with a smile the choreography that's been pre-approved by the dear leader.

I am much more likely to vote for someone who lets people express themselves freely, as opposed to someone who seeks to discipline their supporters in a dictatorial/autocratic way.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Voters need to see in us reliable persons,honest brokers,faithful partners,capable of differing and discussing freely any issue without taboos,yet capable also capable to put aside our differences when the time for work comes.

Voters need to see that we are capable of widening their horizons and perspectives.

We all need to know,and remember, that there is time for criticism and time for commitments.

The best time for criticism is now, because it is the only time your representatives might listen to you. Once they have the chair, you're out for 3.5 years.

That's of course if you're not an expat. If you're an expat, you never have the opportunity to hold anyone accountable.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Souss

This is all untrue.

While coherence and discipline is important to have within the ranks of the people who are running for election, and arguably within any organization, it is absolutely not the case for a discussion forum. In fact it's quite the contrary. Members of a forum are not meant to be a coherent organization, they are meant to take advantage (if that's their choice) of a free place to openly discuss ideas.Whatever coherence that comes out of it will come from the members' free will, and not be imposed from above.

What you are preaching is a North Korea style model, where we all execute with a smile the choreography that's been pre-approved by the dear leader.

I am much more likely to vote for someone who lets people express themselves freely, as opposed to someone who seeks to discipline their supporters in a dictatorial/autocratic way.


The best time for criticism is now, because it is the only time your representatives might listen to you. Once they have the chair, you're out for 3.5 years.

That's of course if you're not an expat. If you're an expat, you never have the opportunity to hold anyone accountable.

Loooool....Who's imposing anything on anyone?

Dude,you're too busy trying to distort what i'm saying lately...Try to relax sometimes.Quelle mauvaise foi!

I'm talking about a very specific matter and in no way anything i'm saying can be attached to your delusional impression of censure.(Unless you're just trying to sound smart)

North Korea?...Oh peuliiize...Why not simply Syria...It's closer and it makes you sound more credible...at least to the loyalists.

PS:Being coherent is, while claiming to be part of a group,fighting with it for the same strategic goals,being capable of showing a minimum of trust,support and solidarity with its members,despite the differences.Can't you criticize without being coherent at the same time?

Obviously not.Because you clearly think that criticism and solidarity are exclusives of each others!

[Lallous]

Originally Posted by Positive Balance

Well, is the forum meant to attract votes and convince wavering supporters, or is it to organize the existing core of FPMers? Good arguments can be made for both sides.

With regards to your first point, most pro-FPM forumers have taken the stance that you're either with us or against us. There is no place for the undecided, neutrality does not exist, and neither does doubt. You support 100% the party and GMA, or we don't have place for your arguments here. It is harsh, yes, but somewhat understandable given the party's transition from a movement based on principles to a party based on politics. Principles are still there, but have had to be accommodating to political reality and choices.

If there are people who support FPM in everything except, for instance, their position vis-a-vis HA, it becomes very difficult to discuss these choices ad infinitum as it won't ever be resolved. I don't think Joseph_Lubnan will ever be convinced that allying with HA is the best choice for FPM, but this is a strategic decision the party made which it can't go back on now.

What I will say is that the developments you highlight in your post have been happening for more than just a few months, but rather a few years by now. A lot of people you describe as somehow in the middle have left, people with an open mind and, above all, a penchant for questioning things intelligently. The average level of discussion has sunk quite a bit, with only a few really respectful discussions going on where differences of opinions are debated in a civil way. It's a shame. But what to do? It's not the party, just a forum, right?

Finally, as for how to approach the so-called independents, it appears many FPMers on the forum implicitly believe that the cost of allowing open debate on every contentious choice made by the party is too high, and therefore the potential loss of some of these votes is a better alternative to fracturing the party through trying to accommodate everyone's interests. That's fair enough, of course. Personally, I've always believed that having 1 critical thinker playing devil's advocate and reflexively questioning the party, its leadership, and its decisions is more useful than 10 die-hard, no questions asked, orange-flag waving FPMers. But I understand there are limits to this, especially when going into an election, when a party must show unity above all. Furthermore, there aren't really many alternatives to FPM, which is why a lot of the so-called independents keep coming back to the Orange Room despite all the complaining they do here!

---

Anyway, I consider myself somewhat accurately described by your post, but I have to say that in the time I've spent on this forum I've come to understand and trust FPM and FPMers, and partially also understand the less desirable behavioral changes (e.g. with us or against us attitude, your ally is a bigger thief so we are clean, etc.) in light of the low level of accusations they are always having to deal with. I am still not a huge fan of HA, but I do think FPM's alliance with them can become useful. There are a number of other issues I don't fully agree with, but then again, let's give FPM a chance in power and see how they do.

You're hired. Sign here Thank you for being a positive balance as always

Members either lack maturity or commitment. Once you get a combination of both, you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, this pool of members that got both is decreasing to many reasons and I doubt it's about the forum itself. Enno, at some point, I can more than understand if someone drops out a forum he has been visiting for 4-5 years, life doesn't revolve around the forum. We hope that someone else will take the lead and life goes on.
As for those who complain for the closure of some threads, deal with it. Mich kil ma da2 el kouz bel jarra about HA, this forum has to become a plateform of battleground for pro-and con HA. We are more then sick of hearing the same arguments of bs from the same members on both parts, w ba3den ? If you are so fond to discuss each small issue of HA's moves, you could join their forum. This is FPM's forum and it is made to promote its ideas, activities, principles, program, vision, etc. This is a decision that has been taken some time ago and we have no problem whatsoever applying it in a drastic way. Even though, we can't hide the fact that a chunk of our Lebanese politics revolve around HA, in no way, it could justify the disproportionnate level of flood we have witnessed in the last period or so. Call it thought control, call it censure, call it whatever you want, members will nag a little and would readapt eventually.
I've opened a thread a while ago about the Lebanese priorities and most of the members considered HA/defence strategy wasn't their primary concern and I've yet to see any member opening a thread about these priorities. Typical Lebanese, first to nag and least to act. Positive Balance for instance opened a thread about economy, no one gave a d*mn.

As for Bookayasha, soon enough you will see many things changing. We have only been waiting for the candidates and the political alliances and lists to be announced to start promoting them. The complete program should be out on May 7th so we would get some substance to discuss about. Make initiatives for God's sake and stop tonzir. (Not addressing you specifically by the way. :P)

[UNTOUCHABLE]

Personally,
I would love to see this forum become the Political Marketing tool for the up coming elections and tayyar activities there after.

Now is the time to strike to push what are striving to do as FPM, Change and Reform and Opposition. Let's not waste time on worrying about the current crooks who have the majority at the moment, let's focus on our program and our nominated MP's.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Lallous

You're hired. Sign here Thank you for being a positive balance as always

Members either lack maturity or commitment. Once you get a combination of both, you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, this pool of members that got both is decreasing to many reasons and I doubt it's about the forum itself. Enno, at some point, I can more then understand if someone drops out a forum he has been visiting for 4-5 years, life doesn't revolve around the forum. We hope that someone else will take the lead and life goes on.
As for those who complain for the closure of some threads, deal with it. Mich kil ma da2 el kouz bel jarra about HA, this forum has to become a plateform of battleground for pro-and con HA. We are more then sick of hearing the same arguments of bs from the same members on both parts, w ba3den ? If you are so fond to discuss each small issue of HA's moves, you could join their forum. This is FPM's forum and it is made to promote its ideas, activities, principles, program, vision, etc. This is a decision that has been taken some time ago and we have no problem whatsoever applying it in a drastic way. Even though, we can't hide the fact that a chunk of our Lebanese politics revolve around HA, in no way, it could justify the disproportionnate level of flood we have witnessed in the last period or so. Call it thought control, call it censure, call it whatever you want, members will nag a little and would readapt eventually.
I've opened a thread a while ago about the Lebanese priorities and most of the members considered HA/defence strategy wasn't their primary concern and I've yet to see any member opening a thread about these priorities. Typical Lebanese, first to nag and least to act. Positive Balance for instance opened a thread about economy, no one gave a d*mn.

As for Bookayasha, soon enough you will see many things changing. We have only been waiting for the candidates and the political alliances and lists to be announced to start promoting them. The complete program should be out on May 7th so we would get some substance to discuss about. Make initiatives for God's sake and stop tonzir. (Not addressing you specifically by the way. :P)

It is censorship, clear as day, and no need to guess. This reflects negatively on your party and its core values. If the topic of Hezbollah is being discussed, it is because it is deemed relevant by the forum members discussing it. You are suppressing this topic because it makes you and your party uncomfortable for many reasons, and its a shame that you would resort to this type of censorship. It only conveys weakness, and feeble convictions.