Are you with Abortion?

[sarhay]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Salome

Yes rarely, but it happens like in cases of rape for example. Or if you take the 72 hrs pills etc...

Salome, these unfotunate cases, rape and incest, are exception and not the major cause for feminist to ride the wave of abortion right! We aretalking about the majority who confined to the isssue at hand.

Hypocrisy is when your pro-life choice brings actually just more suffering, a miserable life.

would you kindly care to explain the above because i do not get how you put this sentence together!

I never saw such researches, it shall depend though on the individual cases. I am sure you will find many women who regretted it, and also many who will say it was inevitable.

researches are avialable and does not favor your point of argument. I will provide you with some whenever you want. LA times, a liberal-non conservative newspaper, did a survey in nineties and found out that 58% of aborters regret having done so, hence the majority regret it and the reverse of what you stated is true!

Is moral attached to religion, or it stands separately too? If it stands alone too, who sets the moral standards?

As i stated before, morals areset of codes that are acquired from upbringing and society in general. Are they connected to religion? if you agree that most societies have certain set of beliefs/religion then morals are just byproduct of such religion. moral standards are mostly set by the society and different morals have different weight from one society to another and within the same society but with multi religious beliefs, i.e. cheating for western society is as wrong as adultery however it is the other way around in our lovely middle east! shameful honor killing is not plainly condemnd by one group of certain religious belief while it is not the case for another group with different religious beliefs in the same society and across most ME countries. so as you see the society/tribes/family and mostly religion of these individuals tend to directly affect the formation of the individual's moral standards.

ps: we can not argue with faith, right?:)

Salome, discussion could be on any topics including faith but in no way we can confine faith to tangible material. faith surpasses our dimensions and make the impossible possible.rgrds

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Claudia

Who mentioned Atheist? I wrote "lefty, feminists, and lesbians". A pro-abortion woman may believe in God (so she's not an atheist) and still don't obbey Him (as it happens with lesbians).

Honey, there's something called politics and there's something called religion. Being a ***** or a saint has nothing to do with your political views. I'm against everything called "rigth winged", I spit on feminists, lesbians, and the hypocricy of right winged governments who launch their barbaric wars on Middle Eastern coutnries killing the millions of women and children.

What are you talking about? Where did I mention Christian nations on my posts?... Ther are no Christian nations... because the ungodly will always be more than the godly ones. Governments of the west have no religion! Most of them are composed by lefty (and atheists!) members. Who legalizes prostitution are people without faith and religion. So how can you blame Christians for what ungodly people do?
Your post about Christians is totally off topic, sorry for that.

The West is left winged? lol Condi and bush are angels in disguise . Hasn't condi had an abortion? Hasn't any of Bush's girls? They must've. Being drunk or high day and night you wouldn't have a clue what you're doing . And who told you I blame Christians? I don't blame Christians, i blame the hypocritical clergy. Samir Farid Geagea is a right winged Lebanese Christian .

[Xena]

well here's another one

"How come when it's us it's an abortion but when it's a chicken it's an omelette?"

YouTube - Pro Life is Anti-Woman - George Carlin

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Claudia

Most pro abortion women are lefty, feminists, and lesbians.

Well I avoid far away all lesbians and leftists, still the most women I know are with abortion. And no, they are not hairy and ugly:D

But don't "push" other women to abortions. Be aware that your words can be readen by women in despair. Don't lead them to a very wrong choice.

You do give too much importance to this thread:D
You seriously think pregnant women browse this forum to get some advice, on top of it my posts would affect their decision?? Please dont insult other`s intelligence.

Originally Posted by Dalzi

She seems to think that you gotta be either holy or a s***. I'm perplexed by such logic.

Dont impose your previous idea on me please:D I dont see things in black and white.

Originally Posted by sarhay

would you kindly care to explain the above because i do not get how you put this sentence together!

Its very easy, you shall understand it literally. Sometimes pro-life choices bring just more misery into this world, like keeping a child from a rapist etc... I think its very clear, if you disagree its another issue.

researches are avialable and does not favor your point of argument. I will provide you with some whenever you want. LA times, a liberal-non conservative newspaper, did a survey in nineties and found out that 58% of aborters regret having done so, hence the majority regret it and the reverse of what you stated is true!

As I said, all individual cases are different, and shall be treated separately.

As i stated before, morals areset of codes that are acquired from upbringing and society in general. Are they connected to religion? if you agree that most societies have certain set of beliefs/religion then morals are just byproduct of such religion. moral standards are mostly set by the society and different morals have different weight from one society to another and within the same society but with multi religious beliefs, i.e. cheating for western society is as wrong as adultery however it is the other way around in our lovely middle east! shameful honor killing is not plainly condemnd by one group of certain religious belief while it is not the case for another group with different religious beliefs in the same society and across most ME countries. so as you see the society/tribes/family and mostly religion of these individuals tend to directly affect the formation of the individual's moral standards.

I am not sure if I get you right, you indeed say then in most cases moral is attached to religion?
If so, as I said it makes no sense to argue with religion.

...faith surpasses our dimensions and make the impossible possible.

Which faith? There are so many...

[sarhay]

Originally Posted by Salome

You do give too much importance to this thread:D

Ya Salome, i believe the issue of abortion is of paramount importance to women, men, and human race in general. From abortion about 50-55 million case of abortion occur yearly!!! you do not think it is a serious then, if you value human life at any stage of development, think again!!!

Its very easy, you shall understand it literally. Sometimes pro-life choices bring just more misery into this world, like keeping a child from a rapist etc... I think its very clear, if you disagree its another issue.

Salome, today in the New York times and in their health section there was an article about the abortion cases from rape and incest. Read the following carefully: only 1% of abortion cases are due to rape and incest combined. here is the link for you to read and to ponder if you get the time?Rape and Incest: Just 1% of All Abortions - New York Times

As I said, all individual cases are different, and shall be treated separately.

keyif jibtiha this time In abortion there is NO grey area you either abort or do not, unless there are "purgatory" abortion cases that I am not aware of!
From the moment of conception all these individual cases you mentioned have common factor, that is a baby/fetus-which is latin for "young one" or "little child". Again such organism is a fertilized egg that has a staggering genetic information, sufficient to control the individual’s growth and development for an entire lifetime.
You know ya Salome that at 18 days, after conception, the heart is forming and the eyes start to develop. in one month, its size has multiplied ten thousand times and blood to flow and brain start to develop. at 40 days, the skeleton is formed and the brain is controlling the movement of the muscles and organs. After the first trimester, nothing new develops or begins functioning. The child only grows and matures. now you are telling me that we have individuality, may be only in the experience but all undergo the same biiological process!

I am not sure if I get you right, you indeed say then in most cases moral is attached to religion?
If so, as I said it makes no sense to argue with religion.

you were asking a question and i answered you with my opinion. I am not arguing with you using religion. All the info i provided you were based on scientific and social findings and research. As far as moral, my moral values combined with my profession make me strongl believe that stage of biological development does not determine a huamn life worth. A 2 yrs old toddler life is worth the same as 6 yrs or 6days.

Which faith? There are so many...

Faith comes in different forms and categories. [off topic] My personal faith is in those 12 weaponless warriors, who had faith in a teacher who installed in them better meaning of life and they faithfully faced a mighty empire without swords or spears, but with their faith in things to come and who ever thought that their faith still inspire peoples after 2000 years!!!

[Salome]

sarhay, I suppose you have the luck to live in a safe and loving environment, surrounded by a lovely family. Thats all well, but not everybody is as lucky as you. You cant advocate from an elephant tower.

Tell me, what is the purpose of your arguments? You support unconditional banning of abortion? There are many cases when you can not be that extremist. Also in a case when the mother's life is at risk, what would you choose? To abort, or let the woman die? Why do you think life is black and white, along with the "pro-life" ladies here?

Originally Posted by sarhay

Ya Salome, i believe the issue of abortion is of paramount importance to women, men, and human race in general. From abortion about 50-55 million case of abortion occur yearly!!! you do not think it is a serious then, if you value human life at any stage of development, think again!!!

50-55 million?? That is a lot! I do think we are overpopulated, but dont get me wrong, I dont mean abortion is the solution, but rather education and prevention!

By the way, what do our "pro-life" members here think about the all kinds of prevention methods? Is that a sin too? (if so, it seems Heaven will be empty for the coming couple of hundred years:D)

Salome, today in the New York times and in their health section there was an article about the abortion cases from rape and incest. Read the following carefully: only 1% of abortion cases are due to rape and incest combined. here is the link for you to read and to ponder if you get the time?Rape and Incest: Just 1% of All Abortions - New York Times

Well surely this issue is being heated up, it's election season:D Why this article tastes like neocon propaganda?

The survey is from 1987, pretty old data.

keyif jibtiha this time In abortion there is NO grey area you either abort or do not, ..

The reason behind the act, what am talking about, you dont like it I know:D

Faith comes in different forms and categories. [off topic] My personal faith is in those 12 weaponless warriors, who had faith in a teacher who installed in them better meaning of life and they faithfully faced a mighty empire without swords or spears, but with their faith in things to come and who ever thought that their faith still inspire peoples after 2000 years!!!

I would like to see Jesus and the Pope having a discussion over abortion. You think they would be on the same wave?
I suppose Jesus is much wiser than all of us, and sees the bigger picture, unlike us, clever humans.

[sarhay]

Originally Posted by Salome

sarhay, I suppose you have the luck to live in a safe and loving environment, surrounded by a lovely family. Thats all well, but not everybody is as lucky as you. You cant advocate from an elephant tower.

your assumption is wrong in material and quality!

Tell me, what is the purpose of your arguments? You support unconditional banning of abortion? There are many cases when you can not be that extremist. Also in a case when the mother's life is at risk, what would you choose? To abort, or let the woman die? Why do you think life is black and white, along with the "pro-life" ladies here?

Salome, i will borrow from Kathy Ireland (non hairy, good looking-not George Carlin type) a phrase to start answering your first question, here you go: "I was once pro-choice. And the thing that changed my mind was, I read my husband's biology books, medical books and what I learned is simply what it states -- this isn't even morally -- this is pure biology.". I do not support unconditional banning on abortion, where did you get that from my posts? please indicate so i can correct myself! Salome, kindly do not use personal label in discussing your point of view. Come to notice, that most abortion advocates are of two kinds, either uninformed or profiteers! It seems you do not fit in the latter. Salome, i used with you science and the best you can come with is collective labeling, keyf y3ani badik ykoun fi intellectual discussion??? Salome, my view is that feminist movement, FYI most of its founding members were not pro-abortion, is being deviated from its justly struggle for equality among man and woman-socially and economically. The feminist movement knew exactly that abortion was wrong as a choice and they were tackling its social roots, which often freed the men from responsibility of fatherhood. These feminists value the fetus' life in-itself and recognized the humanity of fetus even before ultrasound and advancement of science and technology prove them right. it is hypocracy when the feminist of today make a personal choice a matter of legal issue. it is hypocracy when feminist movement that valued human need over profit is anticipating in profiting the selected few doctors!!!
It hypocritical for pro abortion to hijack the history of rightful movement and abandon its just causes for personal vendetta. Look around and see how NOW current president stated that she was inspired by Mattie Brinkhoff, a founding member of women's right movement. I am sure Mattie Brinkhoff is flip for such acclamation, here is what Mattie believed about abortion: "When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society -- so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged."

Here is my stand on abortion: I support social responsibility for the creation of social order and develop nonviolent civilized human conditions by tackling the challenges of preventing unwanted pregnancies.
I DO NOT support, morally/scientifically/financially=tax, wrong actions based on convenience that do not want to struggle socially/philosophical/intellectually with the paramount aspect of life and death matter.

50-55 million?? That is a lot! I do think we are overpopulated, but dont get me wrong, I dont mean abortion is the solution, but rather education and prevention!

because i believe every life counts, I want to correct the figures above, I meant 40-45 million. As far as over population, we are not even close given the birth rate in most industrail countries is far below the threshold of overpopulation rate.

By the way, what do our "pro-life" members here think about the all kinds of prevention methods? Is that a sin too? (if so, it seems Heaven will be empty for the coming couple of hundred years:D)

Ask and thou shall receive one of the 100% preventive method is not encouraged neither promoted in the public school system of USA. I wonder why,hmmmmm?

Well surely this issue is being heated up, it's election season:D Why this article tastes like neocon propaganda?

The survey is from 1987, pretty old data.

and your point is???

The reason behind the act, what am talking about, you dont like it I know:D

Salome, I don't take it personal in my discussion and I was having faith in you to do the same and not to prejudge people who differ with your points especially if you do not personally know them nor know what they do in life?

I would like to see Jesus and the Pope having a discussion over abortion. You think they would be on the same wave?

I thought you would like to see Jesus and the pro abortion "elites" having a discussion over abortion, no?

I suppose Jesus is much wiser than all of us, and sees the bigger picture, unlike us, clever humans.

Indeed!

[Salome]

Originally Posted by sarhay

Salome, i will borrow from Kathy Ireland (non hairy, good looking-not George Carlin type) a phrase to start answering your first question, here you go: "I was once pro-choice. And the thing that changed my mind was, I read my husband's biology books, medical books and what I learned is simply what it states -- this isn't even morally -- this is pure biology.". I do not support unconditional banning on abortion, where did you get that from my posts? please indicate so i can correct myself! Salome, kindly do not use personal label in discussing your point of view. Come to notice, that most abortion advocates are of two kinds, either uninformed or profiteers! It seems you do not fit in the latter. Salome, i used with you science and the best you can come with is collective labeling, keyf y3ani badik ykoun fi intellectual discussion??? Salome, my view is that feminist movement, FYI most of its founding members were not pro-abortion, is being deviated from its justly struggle for equality among man and woman-socially and economically. The feminist movement knew exactly that abortion was wrong as a choice and they were tackling its social roots, which often freed the men from responsibility of fatherhood. These feminists value the fetus' life in-itself and recognized the humanity of fetus even before ultrasound and advancement of science and technology prove them right. it is hypocracy when the feminist of today make a personal choice a matter of legal issue. it is hypocracy when feminist movement that valued human need over profit is anticipating in profiting the selected few doctors!!!
It hypocritical for pro abortion to hijack the history of rightful movement and abandon its just causes for personal vendetta. Look around and see how NOW current president stated that she was inspired by Mattie Brinkhoff, a founding member of women's right movement. I am sure Mattie Brinkhoff is flip for such acclamation, here is what Mattie believed about abortion: "When a man steals to satisfy hunger, we may safely conclude that there is something wrong in society -- so when a woman destroys the life of her unborn child, it is an evidence that either by education or circumstances she has been greatly wronged."

I hope you are not angry or something? You seem to misunderstand me a lot. I also dont know why we are talking about feminist movements now, I was never interested in it, I think it was discussed in another thread.

Here is my stand on abortion: I support social responsibility for the creation of social order and develop nonviolent civilized human conditions by tackling the challenges of preventing unwanted pregnancies.
I DO NOT support, morally/scientifically/financially=tax, wrong actions based on convenience that do not want to struggle socially/philosophical/intellectually with the paramount aspect of life and death matter.

Ok so let me see if I get you right: you dont support abortion basically, but you acknowledge there are certain situations when it shall be allowed? Well it's another question if we can agree on what are these certain situations. For me these surely: in case of rape, incest, when the mother life is at risk, when it is concerning a minor aged girl, or when it is known for 100% that the baby would have a lethal disease, or would have a very painful and not treatable disease.

Ask and thou shall receive one of the 100% preventive method is not encouraged neither promoted in the public school system of USA. I wonder why,hmmmmm?

I agree, there should be done more to prevent careless teenage pregnancies.

and your point is???

How is a 20 year old data still relevant today?

Salome, I don't take it personal in my discussion and I was having faith in you to do the same and not to prejudge people who differ with your points especially if you do not personally know them nor know what they do in life?

I dont know it seems you misunderstood. You said earlier:

..In abortion there is NO grey area you either abort or do not

And my reply was, its about the reason behind the abortion, why this issue is not black and white.

I thought you would like to see Jesus and the pro abortion "elites" having a discussion over abortion, no?

No no, I want to see Jesus discussing with the Pope. I am pretty sure they wont agree on everything. And we both know, right, how this issue is pretty black and white for the Pope. (prevention included)

[sarhay]

Originally Posted by Salome

I hope you are not angry or something?

Something!

You seem to misunderstand me a lot. I also dont know why we are talking about feminist movements now, I was never interested in it, I think it was discussed in another thread.

By saying the above, You are validating my phrase stated previously and that is: "Come to notice, that most abortion advocates are of two kinds, either uninformed or profiteers! It seems you do not fit in the latter."

Ok so let me see if I get you right: you dont support abortion basically, but you acknowledge there are certain situations when it shall be allowed?

Yes!!

when it is concerning a minor aged girl, or when it is known for 100% that the baby would have a lethal disease, or would have a very painful and not treatable disease.

Some people are willing to adopt childern with "Down Syndrome". Beethoven, was the fourth child born with tuberculosis and imagine how can clam down without listening to his music

How is a 20 year old data still relevant today?

do you have more recent data to support your claim? we are not talking about technology advancement, we aretalking about a social issue? do you think this number had increased or decreased and what percentage is it to the total abortion cases?

I dont know it seems you misunderstood.

I am always lagging in my understanding of your argument, my bad

And my reply was, its about the reason behind the abortion, why this issue is not black and white.

What! did i read black and white??????the end result in abortion is the same either/or and no grey area. Please, refer back to my complete statement.

No no, I want to see Jesus discussing with the Pope. I am pretty sure they wont agree on everything. And we both know, right, how this issue is pretty black and white for the Pope. (prevention included)

I am aboslutely sure that the Pope will agree on EVERYTHING and nod his head saying "yes Master" you are right! at the end he want to keep his job,no?

[Anny]

I only agree with an abortion if the foetus is in danger (have health problems) and also, if the women and men made the necessary to not making her pregnant but she got pregnant anyway, well in that case I am not against abortion. For a situation of rape, that too I am with abortion but for other situations, I believe its a crime.