Are you with Abortion?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by GMA forever

Now I am a man who believe in Science and earthly laws, if you chose to believe in heavenly laws be my guest, but you don't have the right to impose them on me. The day my woman would like to abort my baby under whatever circumstance which is purely my and my woman's buisness alone and not yours or anybody else's, I don't accept you or anyone else coming and raising your heavenly sword and dressed as a soldier of the divine which you believe in and forbid that abortion.

I’m not in the business of convincing, I’m simply stating my opinion as you did, like it or lump it. And I don’t recall raising my religious beliefs when addressing your post. I don’t believe people should impose their beliefs on others nor do I subscribe to vigilante justice. However, I do believe every gov’t in the world with a shred of humanity should outlaw abortion and punish those who participate in it. That is justice, not vigilantism.

Scientifically speaking, a baby is a human being.
Scientifically speaking, a fetus is not a human being.

Just for the record, the scientific definition of a fetus: The fetal stage begins the 9th week when major human features have already formed and it ends at birth. So when you say a fetus is not a human being, you are also applying that to an 8 month old fetus. That speaks for itself, point made.

[Claudia]

Originally Posted by CPL

Did you ask yourself that most people who want to abort are people who don't want to subject their babies into horrible conditions?

Oh now we are getting romantic...
What horrible conditions are you talking about??? Don't you know that most women who make abortions are the ones who live in rich countries?? They do abortions because they don't want their babies! There are very few abortions in Africa. Women choose abortion for selfish reasons, not because they are poor... I've never never heard any woman telling me "I didn't want my baby because I was poor"
Some decades ago, poor people who had 7 and 10 children could feel them all.

Let's ask a fetus if it wants to live with AIDS, genetic malformation, in the streets, under an outrage of being the child of an anonymous rapist, or if it's okay for it if its mother dies while giving birth for him, so that it grows up without a mother, yeah a fetus will love it right?

Yes, he will love that. Probably you wouldn't like that for you (as I wouldn't like for me) but if one day (I hope never) I live with AIDS or in the street... I won't kill myself. And I don't want anyone kill me, so please just because some only like to live when they are rich and healthy, don't presume that Everyone would be tremendous happy living with AIDS. Visit a hospital, dear, and listen to their testimonies, maybe happy people living with AIDS can change your mind.

Second, what's this silly idea of asking a fetus? That doesn't make an argument. Did you ask God his opinion about abortion? What did he tell you? Nothing.

Yes, He told me. Funny how you ask for God's opinion But I don't mind to explain it: You can't say you know God untill you read His Word. You can know and feel that there is a God, but you don't know Him till the day you read His Word.

So if you read the Bible (His Word, the way He talks to us) we will see that abortion is a crime.

"Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).

God knows the preborn child: "You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret" (Psalm 139:13,15).

God also helps and calls the preborn child. "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God" (Psalm 22:10-11).

But now you can say "Oh but I am a Muslim!". Ok, then read these two great sites
JI: Islam and Abortion
Abortion in Islam

What more do you want to know about God's opinions?

[Salome]

Cientificos, you shall stop arguing with faith:D

Strange, non of the "pro life" supporters here addressed my post abt the psycho rapists. Do you agree with me maybe?:D

[Claudia]

Plus, why do you have to only ask a fetus if it wants to live, with your logic, you can ask a fetus anything... but I don't see people walking around asking their fetuses questions and waiting for answers.

You know why?

So if you don't talk with a fetus about he wants to live or not, then let him live! Why are you denying him the chance to live just because mom and dad don't want him? As Caesar says, if you're a pro-choice, then give the baby a chance to live, don't be so dictator about someone's life.

Originally Posted by Salome

Goooood, now can I be different too, and have my different opinion? Thanks:D

Of course, Salome. You can have all the opinions you wish.

Originally Posted by GMA forever

Then I am sorry to disappoint you but I am not the fetus, I have been a fetus many decades ago, before becoming a human being.

You were already a human being... But if you want to tell us that your mother carried a thing (and not a person) inside her, then it's your problem, GAM forever. My mother carried me, a human being with an unique and precious ADN. But if with you things were different... then who am I to jugde?...

Next time you go and try asking a fetus yourself if it wants to live or not, the moment you succeed to get an answer from the fetus, come back here and tell us all what it was.

Of course he wants to live! Frankly GMA, what a question! Every baby wants to live. Don't you see how their faces when some hours after they are born? Do they seem unhappy? Of course not.

Originally Posted by Salome

you are funny to come with the condom as an ultimate saviour:D

Originally Posted by Salome

did you hear that none of those contraceptive methods are 100% sure?

and a condom is meaningless when we are talking about rapists etc..

Ok, now the contraceptives.
I am sorry to tell this but I wonder how sad life would be if everyone was a pro-choice... Everytime people had sex, they would think "oh, contraceptives can fail... if I get pregnant I'll have no alternative than an abortion because I am ugly, depressed and poor! So the best... is no sex at all!"

Salome, please don't want for yourself a stressful life. Enjoy everything life has to offer and accept all the consequences of it.

Originally Posted by Salome

Noone shall judge that woman, and label her killer, who decides not to have a baby of a psycho ******* rapist.
How can our pro life supporters encourage the woman to keep the result of such horrible crime? Please dont come with the adoption BS, having the result of that crime for a life makes many miserable.

A rape is a very sad situation and obviously I don't wish that for any woman. I am a defensor of death penalty for men who rape children and castration for rapers in general. But an abortion won't help the raped woman. Instead of one trauma, she'll have to face two traumas. If a mother doesn't want to raise a child in this situation (and I understand if she doesn't), she should give the baby for adoption. Many rich couples wants to adopt a baby and they will take care of your child. Don't be selfish and give your baby to someone who wants him.

Originally Posted by False Morel

Well, here's the deal:
If that fetus would ruin the life of my partner and mine and that of the future child, then of course we'll get rid of it. As simple as that!

Yes, simple as that!... And that is what I call a "false morel" response.

Now I am a man who believe in Science and earthly laws, if you chose to believe in heavenly laws be my guest, but you don't have the right to impose them on me. The day my woman would like to abort my baby under whatever circumstance which is purely my and my woman's buisness alone and not yours or anybody else's, I don't accept you or anyone else coming and raising your heavenly sword and dressed as a soldier of the divine which you believe in and forbid that abortion.

This is a forum, ok? When you write your opinion, you're already imposing your point of view. Other posters don't have to follow you, but they have to read you. And we, pro-life, wrote what we think, and what we think is that Abortion is wrong.

Funny, you wrote "the day my woman would like to abort my baby... etc" You said "baby". A baby is not a human? It is, you just admitted it.

When mothers face accidental abortions, most of them feel a huge pain and loss. Plus, if you kill a pregnant you'll get more years of prison than if you kill a non-pregnant women. Why do you think that is?...

Now I would like to have your opinion: your wife gets pregnant. And just imagine that you would LOVE to have this child, raise her and give your love to her. One day, your wife arrives home and says "I just did an abortion, there's no baby anymore". Tell me very honestly, how would you think about this? Wouldn't you feel like if you had lost a Person you wished so much?

[Abu Ruman]

Salome, you are wasting your time. To put it in Carlinian terms, you're arguing with people who believe (atrociously, even in the case of rape) that an irreversible dictum has been mandated by the invisible man.

Remember, no one argues with the invisible man.

Afterall, which woman wouldnt want to wake up every morning staring at the face of the living manifestation of her greatest nightmare? Also, what child wouldnt want to be a walking carrier of unethically passed genes? But dont worry - to put it again in Carlinian terms - everytime the child fills out a legal document he/she can just neutralize his/her emotions by identifying his/her mother as the unwilling sperm recipient - rather than a victim who was forced to surrender her sexual organs to some stranger (daddy). Because, I'll be honest with you, in a society which forces a woman to confront her greatest nightmare - without any terminal solution - they would have to legally, culturally, linguistically, mentally, etc. reduce the reality to such sanitary terms, without the kid going psychologically insane him/herself.

Its absolutely disgusting how these neomoralists cross their own ideals.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Salome

Add to that, that chickens are better humans than us.

Chickens are birds not humans.

GJC and Dalzi, its good to see you two standing in one line, you give back some hope about Lebanese unity:D

We've been standing in one line for a very long time, especially when it comes to social issues.

Originally Posted by Salome

Cientificos, you shall stop arguing with faith:D

Strange, non of the "pro life" supporters here addressed my post abt the psycho rapists. Do you agree with me maybe?:D

First of all, by saying that you're the "cientificos", are you implying that people who have faith are idiots? lol How bankrupt can this get? Some have resorted to denying the “humanity” of an unborn fetus, while others want to shove human conventions in our faces forcing us to belive in them while we don't! lol Where's the science in your arguments??? First of all, what you know of religion, is not what we believe in. Second, we are addressing abortion from a “scientific” perspective. You’ve said that conception is clear when it comes to faith and I told you that it isn’t. Islam gives 40 days for a decision to be made after which the baby is not to be aborted because it's "an innocent human that has the right to live". It’s our duty to define when the fetus is “human enough” not to be aborted. You need science for that honey. We were not given a brain by that God of ours just to fill up a skull.

Now, from a humanitarian point of view, we are arguing that you do not kill an innocent human being just because it doesn't suit you to have him/her. An unborn baby is a human, a human who has to right to live. Da Vinci himself was an unwanted child.

Strange, non of the "pro life" supporters here addressed my post abt the psycho rapists. Do you agree with me maybe?:D

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Filthy rapists, the scums of the earth, should be castrated [].

I've mentioned that the only conditions where I believe a child can be aborted is when the mother's life is in danger, or when she's a victim of rape. The raper is to be killed too. Kill the swine and all that's left of him. There may be a few more situations which are very logical, other than that, i fail to see the logic. All i see is selfishness and carelessness.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by False Morel

Dalz, which part of the "I don't care" did you not get?!

Well, here's the deal:
If that fetus would ruin the life of my partner and mine and that of the future child, then of course we'll get rid of it. As simple as that!

That's up to you to decide, yet it makes you a criminal. Maybe you and your partner should try harder not to be clumsy, careless and weak enough to fall pregnant. Invest in some contraceptives. Would you kill a four month old baby for example? Do you have the heart to kill it?

This ongoing debate about whether to consider a fetus a human being doesn't interest me at all.

I understand that. Well said. You don't care if it's a human being, yet you claim you are pro human rights lol.

I'd like to re-ask the serious question raised by George Carlin:
how come when it's us, it's abortion, and when it's chicken, it's an omelet?

Sakheeeeeef. This proves that his brain is that of a chickens.

To reform the question so that you get the point:
Why is a life considered sacred? And why the human life is considered sacred while that of a chicken is not?!

Needless to mention here that killing or ruining a sacred thing is automatically labeled at least a "bad" thing.

Soon, you'll be calling on cow worshiping lol. You have to eat to survive. Killing any animal "for fun" is like killing a human. Oh, i forgot that we can eat babies too.

Anyway, here's a completion to the argument:

Not good enough. I'd throw tomatoes at him had i been there.

Of course he wants to live! Frankly GMA, what a question! Every baby wants to live. Don't you see how their faces when some hours after they are born? Do they seem unhappy? Of course not.

They start screaming and if they don't scream they hit them . Crying we come, crying we go :D. Life's a blessing :).

[GMA forever]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

I’m not in the business of convincing, I’m simply stating my opinion as you did, like it or lump it. And I don’t recall raising my religious beliefs when addressing your post. I don’t believe people should impose their beliefs on others nor do I subscribe to vigilante justice. However, I do believe every gov’t in the world with a shred of humanity should outlaw abortion and punish those who participate in it. That is justice, not vigilantism..

Well as you said, if that is your opinion you are totally entitled to it. Just it seems we won't fit together in the same country, since you will choose to live in a country which forbids abortion, and i will live in a country which allows it.

What can be justice for some, may be vigilantism for others, and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

Just for the record, the scientific definition of a fetus: The fetal stage begins the 9th week when major human features have already formed and it ends at birth. So when you say a fetus is not a human being, you are also applying that to an 8 month old fetus. That speaks for itself, point made.

You have a very valid point here, but this doesn't outlaw abortion.

Ethically and morally, aborting an 8 months old infant is not the same as aborting a 2 months old fetus but who are we to judge right?

It is all about the laws you choose to follow. If your laws are made in planet earth, then chances are that those laws will be in coordination with Science and Medicine of humans. But if your laws are made in heaven, then they probably serve some misterious divine plan set to enslave humans, that's in my humble opinion of course.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by GMA forever

Ethically and morally, aborting an 8 months old infant is not the same as aborting a 2 months old fetus but who are we to judge right?

Why not let our science judge?

It is all about the laws you choose to follow. If your laws are made in planet earth, then chances are that those laws will be in coordination with Science and Medicine of humans. But if your laws are made in heaven, then they probably serve some misterious divine plan set to enslave humans, that's in my humble opinion of course.

And our opinion is that the creator of all these wonders is better to judge than us; His judgements make a lot of sense if you think deeply. Humans are not slaves, they are free to choose. It's them and their conscience.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Claudia

A rape is a very sad situation and obviously I don't wish that for any woman. I am a defensor of death penalty for men who rape children and castration for rapers in general. But an abortion won't help the raped woman. Instead of one trauma, she'll have to face two traumas. If a mother doesn't want to raise a child in this situation (and I understand if she doesn't), she should give the baby for adoption. Many rich couples wants to adopt a baby and they will take care of your child. Don't be selfish and give your baby to someone who wants him.[/font][/color]

I strongly dissagree here. Rape is a crime, to give justice to the victim, you are to get rid of the criminal and his crime; otherwise you'd be aggravating the crime. This is justice. The mother comes first, before the baby, in these circumstances. A woman who's been a rape victim is given RU-486 in hospitals straight away if the crime is reported of course and if she wants it (of course).

Giving up your child up for adoption is not like giving away a pair of jeans for charity.