Why Catholicism is not Christianity

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

All man-made religions are unchristian, but in this thread, I will concentrate on what some people like to call "the true religion of Christianity", or "the religion that Jesus Christ founded."

The following inconsistencies are commonly known by members of the Catholic church, yet they continue to follow it's man-made doctrine, and choose to ignore God's teachings.

First off the Catholic church has a bloody history, it's responsible for the mass slaughter of countless of innocent people in the name of God, including those who dared to question it's authority and doctrine. The Popes and bishops have a laundry list of crimes to account for throughout their bloody history, from ordering assassinations and executions of innocent people, mass murder, imprisoning people without trials, arresting political rivals, torturing them, imposing their will unconditionally, pedophelia, collaborating with the Nazi regime, unfair taxation etc. I think it's fair to say, it's unchristian to be involved in such criminal activity.

Lets move on to the Catholic church doctrine, the Pope is quite simply an abomination and an evil doer according to the scriptures:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:3-6

I think that speaks for itself, also in the words of Jesus:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:1-10

The Catholic church considers the Pope infallible, but there is nothing infallible about him when his title and existence goes against everything the Bible teaches. God is infallible, and the Pope claiming it is nothing short of blasphemy. I wonder who the the scribes & pharisees represent today? There is nothing new under the sun. I recommend that you read all of Matthew 23, it's too long to quote here.

Mary is not the mother of God, but was the earthly mother of Jesus in the flesh. This is well documented in John 1:1. Micah
5:2. Please note the Word is Jesus, He is the living Word, and He was with God from the beginning. Why Jesus was born in the flesh, check Hebrew 2:9. Furthermore, the Pope bows to the statue of Mary and worships her, this is breaking the 1st and 2nd commandements of the Lord.

Confessing to priests and appointing Saints is a sin. Man can only confess their sins to God. You are suppose to seek advice from the wise and discuss faults that might lead to sin, not confess and ask forgiveness from another sinner. Only God and Jesus can forgive, because they are without sin. Check 1 Timothy 2:5. 1 John 2:1.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5

Depriving priests of marriage is denying God's gift and not found in the scriptures, but an added doctrine of the Catholic church.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:" 1 Timothy 4:1-4

Thats a prophesy if I ever saw one.

"Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?" 1 Corinthians 9:5

And the list goes on... I could go on for days. The Catholic church does not represent the Bible, but the Catholic doctrine, and what does God think of this:

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" Proverbs 30:6

If you corrupt the Word of God, then you are serving the one that invented deception... Who was the first to twist God's word in the Garden Of Eden? By deceiving people, you are also denying them the true word.

[Josh Valides]

Dear Gaius Julius Caesar,

First to make your claim more reasonable, it would be better if you cover a little bit of your hatred to Catholism. I do agree that the catholic church has a bloody history. Apart of this, i wish the anti-catholic people see the good things the catholic church have done over the history.
It's funny how you are taking some bible paragraphs and touching them with your own explianation. That's a big debate, and we can spend days argueing about the bible, and how to explain Jesus' teachings.
It sounds clear for me that you are either protestant or Jehovah witness. So here you go my friend:
Bush is protestant and what he did in Iraq is more than a bloody war. 500thousands people have been killed so far, so according to your way of concluding things, the protestants have a bloody history now.
Putin is Orthodox. He launched a bloody war against chechenya killing thousands of innocent people, so according to your way of concluding things, the Orthodox have a bloody history now.
Israel destroyed what was known by Palestine. Millions of palestinians have been killed and millions have been take refugees in the arab world, so according to your way of concluding things, the jews have a bloody history now. More than that Israel have been blindly supported by the protestants in USA, so again the protestant have more than a bloody history now.

You know my friends, as a catholic i'm not gonna hate you because you don't know what you are doing. I'll forgive you and i'll ask god to help you eliminate this hatred from your heart. And i'm doing this just because my church have taught me how to forgive people.

My friend, i'm catholic an i've never been engaged in any bloody action. I didn't kill the jews back in the fourthies. History is history, and present is present. Don't judge me because of my history, judge me for what i'm doing now. Neither of us was born in the 16th century; remember that..

God bless you.....

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by Josh Valides

Dear Gaius Julius Caesar,

First to make your claim more reasonable, it would be better if you cover a little bit of your hatred to Catholism. I do agree that the catholic church has a bloody history. Apart of this, i wish the anti-catholic people see the good things the catholic church have done over the history.
It's funny how you are taking some bible paragraphs and touching them with your own explianation. That's a big debate, and we can spend days argueing about the bible, and how to explain Jesus' teachings.
It sounds clear for me that you are either protestant or Jehovah witness. So here you go my friend:
Bush is protestant and what he did in Iraq is more than a bloody war. 500thousands people have been killed so far, so according to your way of concluding things, the protestants have a bloody history now.
Putin is Orthodox. He launched a bloody war against chechenya killing thousands of innocent people, so according to your way of concluding things, the Orthodox have a bloody history now.
Israel destroyed what was known by Palestine. Millions of palestinians have been killed and millions have been take refugees in the arab world, so according to your way of concluding things, the jews have a bloody history now. More than that Israel have been blindly supported by the protestants in USA, so again the protestant have more than a bloody history now.

You know my friends, as a catholic i'm not gonna hate you because you don't know what you are doing. I'll forgive you and i'll ask god to help you eliminate this hatred from your heart. And i'm doing this just because my church have taught me how to forgive people.

My friend, i'm catholic an i've never been engaged in any bloody action. I didn't kill the jews back in the fourthies. History is history, and present is present. Don't judge me because of my history, judge me for what i'm doing now. Neither of us was born in the 16th century; remember that..

God bless you.....

I started my thread like this All man-made religions are unchristian, but in this thread, I will concentrate on what some people like to call "the true religion of Christianity", or "the religion that Jesus Christ founded." because I know someone like you would come along. Sorry to discredit your entire post, but I'm not a Protestant or a Jehova's witness, nor do I subscribe to any man-made religion, otherwise that would make me a hypocrite. If you read my post without bias and a clear head, you would have understood that I am vehemently opposed to any man-made religion that modifies the scriptures to suit it's own doctrine. I am a Christian, nothing more and nothing less, I subscribe to the teachings of the Bible and any church that teaches the Bible. Yes, I hate what the Catholic church stands for, because it twists and corrupts the Word of God by playing God. I hate any organization that serves Satan, and that includes Protestantism, Orthodox, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Evangelists or any other man-made entity that drifts from God's teachings. I provided sources straight from the Bible, not rhetoric like you have done. You don't have to read my comments, just read the sources and quotes which I provided, they speak for themselves; unless you think the Pope overules God's teachings.

P.S. Don't take this wrong way, I'm no fan of Protestantism, I think it's just as bad as Catholicism, Bush is not the head of the Protestant Church, but the Pope is the head of the Catholic church, and he is suppose to be infallible...

[Josh Valides]

I don't care about the pope, and to be honest with you i've never praid for our pope or for any priest. I think it's not fair to come up with this conclusion about Catholicism. If you paid attention to my first response; i didn't deny the bloody history. You are trying to show that you beleive in Jesus, so does forgiveness mean anything for you? I doubt it, and you beleive in Jesus, Wow. You are like the 16th century catholics. You aren't critisizing, what you are doing is just showing your jealousy.
Have you ever met good catholics? if not, i don't know where you are living.
I'm not trying to convince you that the church is 100 percent clean, but the church helps people like me to know Jesus. Maybe you were lucky, and you discovered jesus by yourself. I didn't, i wasn't born as christian, and the people who opened my eyes to Jesus were the catholic church. The only difference between the church and you and both of you beleive in Jesus, is the respect. Those guys whom you hate never talked about you guys badly; on the other hand you hate them and you keep critisizing them. So whom do you want me to beleive in, you and the people alike, or the catholic church?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by Josh Valides

I don't care about the pope, and to be honest with you i've never praid for our pope or for any priest. I think it's not fair to come up with this conclusion about Catholicism. If you paid attention to my first response; i didn't deny the bloody history. You are trying to show that you beleive in Jesus, so does forgiveness mean anything for you? I doubt it, and you beleive in Jesus, Wow. You are like the 16th century catholics. You aren't critisizing, what you are doing is just showing your jealousy.
Have you ever met good catholics? if not, i don't know where you are living.
I'm not trying to convince you that the church is 100 percent clean, but the church helps people like me to know Jesus. Maybe you were lucky, and you discovered jesus by yourself. I didn't, i wasn't born as christian, and the people who opened my eyes to Jesus were the catholic church. The only difference between the church and you and both of you beleive in Jesus, is the respect. Those guys whom you hate never talked about you guys badly; on the other hand you hate them and you keep critisizing them. So whom do you want me to beleive in, you and the people alike, or the catholic church?

You believe in what you want, God gave you free will, and it's up to you to differentiate between truths & lies. As a Christian, the truth comes from the Word of God, his letter to you the Bible, and whomsoever teaches it; not from some Pope who is in over his head. As I documented in my original post, God warned us about false teachers, and we should recognize deception & lies when we see them. I'm sure there are plenty of good people within the Catholic church, you cannot commit a sin in ignorance, but the Church itself and the Priesthood is evil, and should be dissolved, the sooner the better. Seek the truth and you will find...

The Pope might not mean anything to you, but he does to Catholicism, and he is the head of an organization that teaches falsehoods which serve no purpose but to deceive God's children. Why should God forgive the Catholic church? Did they stop teaching lies? Blinding people when they are suppose to give them sight? Did they depose the Pope? Are they allowing the prieshood to marry? Did they stop inventing new doctrines? Did they punish pedophile priests accordingly? I think not. You don't forgive someone that does not acknowledge the sin and continues in his evil deeds. A Church is a place were God's word is taught, not for traditions and theatrics, and this rule applies to any Church.

[Claudia]

First off the Catholic church has a bloody history, it's responsible for the mass slaughter of countless of innocent people in the name of God, including those who dared to question it's authority and doctrine.

Yes it is true but the "mass slaughter of countless of innocent people" is a bit too much. Let me tell you that religion is composed by men, sinner men. With all my respect and friendship I have for you (and you know I have), I and the majority of people are sinners. We do mistakes, huge mistakes, but we recognize that. I am not a theological genius who doesn't need a religion to guide me. Most of us need people, inspired by God, to open our eyes. I am very thankful to be a Roman Catholic.

You can't blame catholics for murders because you would have to blame all religions. Lutero was a big anti-semite, and as far as I know Jewish authorities were not particularly kind to Jesus and to the first Jews who converted to Christianity. As far I remember, in 2001 some fanatic muslims terrorists, supported by other fanatic Muslim called Bin Laden, killed thousands of innocents only because they were Americans. You can be sure I won't blame Islam or Judaism for what some individuals did.
Sadly, religions (including the catholic church) will remain sinning. It's our duty to make them better.

The Popes and bishops have a laundry list of crimes to account for throughout their bloody history, from ordering assassinations and executions of innocent people, mass murder, imprisoning people without trials, arresting political rivals, torturing them, imposing their will unconditionally, pedophelia, collaborating with the Nazi regime, unfair taxation etc. I think it's fair to say, it's unchristian to be involved in such criminal activity.

All religions did that, Caesar. I don't get your point. And I don't understand why the Catholic Church is the bad "guy" here.
Those things you mentioned are wrong, nobody here says the contrary. If a a hospital's director is a bad doctor and if he rapes a woman in his hospital office, he is breaking the Hippocrates code. So in your opinion medicine would become something very wrong, right?

The Catholic church considers the Pope infallible, but there is nothing infallible about him when his title and existence goes against everything the Bible teaches.

The Pope is infallible in what concern to Dogmas. If you play the Trivial Pursuit with the Pope and if he fail a question... his answer will be wrong, be a Pope or not. Encyclicals are not creations or beautiful documents from the Pope, they exist to explain the Bible and to transmit a behavior code.

I recommend that you read all of Matthew 23, it's too long to quote here.

Jesus was talking about the Judaism of those days, which was a formal and juridic group of laws. Above them there is something more important: Love.

Mary is not the mother of God, but was the earthly mother of Jesus in the flesh. This is well documented in John 1:1. Micah
5:2. Please note the Word is Jesus, He is the living Word, and He was with God from the beginning. Why Jesus was born in the flesh, check Hebrew 2:9.

Caesar, Jesus had (has) two natures: the Divine and the Human. Mary is the mother of Christ, not only the mother of Jesus. If she is the mother of Jesus, and if Jesus has a Divine nature, then she is the mother of this divine nature. Then she is the Mother of God, because Jesus is God.

Furthermore, the Pope bows to the statue of Mary and worships her, this is breaking the 1st and 2nd commandements of the Lord.

Statues are like the Icons for the Orthodox churches. We all know those images or statues are not God, but they are a (weak) represent of His perfection. Don't you have pictures of your beloved ones in your room? I do have and I kiss them many times. Am I an idolater? I don't think so...

Confessing to priests and appointing Saints is a sin. Man can only confess their sins to God. You are suppose to seek advice from the wise and discuss faults that might lead to sin, not confess and ask forgiveness from another sinner. Only God and Jesus can forgive, because they are without sin. Check 1 Timothy 2:5. 1 John 2:1.

The Gospels are clear when they say Jesus gave power to the Apostles to forgive sins.

Caesar, for some reason you hate the Catholics. But you should know that Catholic Church brought great things to Humanity. Read about the Saints and you'll find great men and women who helped and gave Light and Peace to so many others. If catholicism was a work of Satan, as you say, those saints wouldn't exist; Satan doesn't produce Mercy and Compassion.

Sorry but you pick up points from the Bible and then you explain them by your own ideas. If you don't have theological studies you are not ready or entitled to explain or to develop theories about the Word of God.

By the way, why do you think Evangelicals, Catholics and Jehovah are man-made religions. What's the difference between them and Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Budism... I dare to say you are only attacking religions that follow Christ... this is strange from someone who calls himself a Christian. Please don't take this with sarcasm, it's just a point I would like you explain.

[coralie]

i dont like to debate religious matters bcause i dont believe that under this sky any religion is following truely the teaching OF GOD either catholics or any others . they all tried at some point to impose a certain faith by the sward i dont think this is what our religion our true teaching is all about . God is Love and mercy and what happened in history from all religion was human crazy behavior nothing to do with what we call God teachings !
we simply do not apply what was given to us in the gospels or we simply do not read well . it is sad that we follow a certain religion either it is catholic or other with our brain not our hearts and thats what make us cause later lots of bloody acts in the name of God .
if we read history all wars were made in the name of God lots of ppl died in the name of God ... what does that mean ? is that christianity ? is this Islam ? is this what God wants ?
christianisme is clear but is the christians following the true teachings ? i will not talk about other religions who are not better in their bloody history but it is something to think about .
w should stop for a while and think why do we have to do such acts and say we do it in the name of OUR GOD .. why do we need to put the "blame" on God to spare our conscience the fact that it was all only human greed to fulfill its goals !

[Dark Angel]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

You believe in what you want, God gave you free will, and it's up to you to differentiate between truths & lies. As a Christian, the truth comes from the Word of God, his letter to you the Bible, and whomsoever teaches it; not from some Pope who is in over his head.

it would have been great if you had the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Who told you that the truth emanates from the pope in Catholic Church? And assuming that to be the case, which it is not, which specific truth do you find so unbelievably offensive to proclaim that Catholicism is borderline evil? And where exactly did you get the idea that Christianity is perceived as a Catholic exclusivity by the Vatican? it is a very offensive thread you have started my friend, and it does reek with ignorance both about Christianity and the Catholic church.

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

As I documented in my original post, God warned us about false teachers, and we should recognize deception & lies when we see them. I'm sure there are plenty of good people within the Catholic church, you cannot commit a sin in ignorance, but the Church itself and the Priesthood is evil, and should be dissolved, the sooner the better. Seek the truth and you will find...

Why dont you go ahead and do me a favor and point out the deceptions and the lies of the Church? as to your claim about priesthood being evil, it is not even worth commenting on. Not only does it ring of prejudice and discrimination, but it also reflects a severe hatred against the servants of god, for that's what they are in reality. The world without the Catholic church will be much poorer spiritually. We may have our differences with some clergy, but to go ahead and declare them all as evil is not well founded rationally.

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

The Pope might not mean anything to you, but he does to Catholicism, and he is the head of an organization that teaches falsehoods which serve no purpose but to deceive God's children. Why should God forgive the Catholic church? Did they stop teaching lies? Blinding people when they are suppose to give them sight? Did they depose the Pope? Are they allowing the prieshood to marry? Did they stop inventing new doctrines? Did they punish pedophile priests accordingly? I think not. You don't forgive someone that does not acknowledge the sin and continues in his evil deeds. A Church is a place were God's word is taught, not for traditions and theatrics, and this rule applies to any Church.

again, please point out the falsehoods taught by the church instead of talking generalities.
The reality of the matter is that you hate the Catholic Church with a vengeance, and it is preventing you from realizing that priests are still men, and they have a potential for good just as they have a potential for evil. They are far from being perfect, and some of them do succumb to temptations. But the overwhelming majority is dedicated to the work of god, all the way from feeding the hungry, to treating the sick, to visiting the prisoners, etc etc etc.

and then why should the pope be deposed?? also, the priests know well ahead of going forth with their pledge that they are to lead a life of celibacy, and it is a decision that is consciously taken. if they dont complain about it why does it bother you? and please let's not even start with the pedophile priests and the anti-catholicism campaigns that are rampaging through the states in a very organized fashion to discredit the catholic church. I am not claiming that priests are saints, but they are not all evil either.

I find it very bitter that discriminating against the catholic church is well encouraged and generously fonded by the same people who's job is to morph any criticism against a jewish individual, a jewish group or the jewish state into an anti-semitism sin.

My advice to you is to do your homework before joining the anti-catholic league. The church is far from being perfect, and yes they have made plenty of mistakes in the past, and probably they will make plenty of mistakes in the future, but they are the most moderated entity in a world where blind hatred seems to be overtaking everything (your post included)

[Dark Angel]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

All man-made religions are unchristian, but in this thread, I will concentrate on what some people like to call "the true religion of Christianity", or "the religion that Jesus Christ founded."

The following inconsistencies are commonly known by members of the Catholic church, yet they continue to follow it's man-made doctrine, and choose to ignore God's teachings.

First off the Catholic church has a bloody history, it's responsible for the mass slaughter of countless of innocent people in the name of God, including those who dared to question it's authority and doctrine. The Popes and bishops have a laundry list of crimes to account for throughout their bloody history, from ordering assassinations and executions of innocent people, mass murder, imprisoning people without trials, arresting political rivals, torturing them, imposing their will unconditionally, pedophelia, collaborating with the Nazi regime, unfair taxation etc. I think it's fair to say, it's unchristian to be involved in such criminal activity.

The Catholic church does not claim to hold exclusivity over Christianity; it does however have a different interpretation of the texts that seem to be accepted by more than a billion people.
The church itself did have a bloody history in the middle ages, and the some popes and bishops were beyond obnoxious, however you have to keep in mind that they are men thus they are susceptible to evil, and you have to keep in mind that many popes were politically appointed by major powers and they were not necessarily pious.

Lets move on to the Catholic church doctrine, the Pope is quite simply an abomination and an evil doer according to the scriptures:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments." Exodus 20:3-6

I think that speaks for itself, also in the words of Jesus:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ." Matthew 23:1-10

The Catholic church considers the Pope infallible, but there is nothing infallible about him when his title and existence goes against everything the Bible teaches. God is infallible, and the Pope claiming it is nothing short of blasphemy. I wonder who the the scribes & pharisees represent today? There is nothing new under the sun. I recommend that you read all of Matthew 23, it's too long to quote here.

You have taken Mathew 23 completely out of context. I will repost it in full. Even though the words are precious and should be applied at all ages and in all circumstances, the main addressee are the jewish priests, the pharisees, and Jerusalem in general.

As to your claim that the existence of the pope is against the teaching of the bible, you are very mistaken. First i doubt that you are aware of what the role of the pope is, and who's role he's supposed to fulfil. The role of the pope is that of saint Peter and is supposed to look after the flock. He's neither representing the Christ, nor God. The church started with Saint Peter and Saint Paul, and it persisted through the ages, it had its ups and downs, but it always made it through.

Mary is not the mother of God, but was the earthly mother of Jesus in the flesh. This is well documented in John 1:1. Micah
5:2. Please note the Word is Jesus, He is the living Word, and He was with God from the beginning. Why Jesus was born in the flesh, check Hebrew 2:9. Furthermore, the Pope bows to the statue of Mary and worships her, this is breaking the 1st and 2nd commandements of the Lord.

as to worshiping Mary, she's not worshipped, she is venerated. and there is a major difference between worshipping and venerating. as to her being holy or not, why dont you be the judge to that, and i am quoting:
"On October 13, 1917 an estimated 100,000 people gathered at the Cova da Iria in Fatima, Portugal. The enormous crowd came despite a continual downpour of torrential rain-some of the heaviest rain in recent memory (rain so heavy the military had to suspend it's movements)-because it had been reported that on the 13th of every month since May that same year, three children had experienced apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary and that on this day She would appear again for the last time and had promised a miracle.

When the alleged apparition began the heavy rain suddenly stopped and the clouds cleared, revealing the sun. A few moments later the oldest visionary, Lucia, suddenly pointed and said "Look, the Sun!"

It was reported that every person present was then able to look directly at the unclouded, unobstructed sun with their naked eyes, without pain or injury. As they looked the sun began to "spin" wildly and cast off an array of colors. It then began to "dance" about the sky as all continued to look on. Finally it appeared that the sun was suddenly growing larger and larger and terror struck when the crowd realized it appeared as if the sun was about to crash into the Earth. At the last moment, however, it stopped and gradually receded back into it's normal place in the sky. After that, none were able to look directly at it any longer; as would normally be the case, the sun's light was simply too bright. The entire event lasted a reported twelve minutes. (This event at Fatima was reported in a number of newspapers around the world despite the fact that astronomers reported nothing unusual had happened to the sun.)"

There was 100,000 witnesses present there. Not one or two people. So you be the judge to whether she should be recognized and venerated or not!

Confessing to priests and appointing Saints is a sin. Man can only confess their sins to God. You are suppose to seek advice from the wise and discuss faults that might lead to sin, not confess and ask forgiveness from another sinner. Only God and Jesus can forgive, because they are without sin. Check 1 Timothy 2:5. 1 John 2:1.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1 Timothy 2:5

another misconception about the Catholic doctrine, and Christianity in general

"God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)"


I personally think that the act of forgiving sins is a two folds contract, the priest can not accord your forgiveness unless you are ready to be forgiven.. The priest simply acknowledges your redemption. The act of confession is called as such for a reason. in a previous post of mine i did explain the act of confession thoroughly so here it goes. read it well.

The fact that one acknowledges a wrong doing one may have committed and brings it to the open in the presence of another human being is by itself the first step towards repenting. Now to do that in the presence of a priest, adds a divine dimension to it. The priest serves as an instrument for forgiveness, he doesn't grant it, but he acknowledges it.

When Christ is quoted in the bible saying "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more" it was also noted that the Jews got very agitated by this statement, since only God has the power to forgive sins.

It goes beyond doubt that as things are supposed to stand, God, who's all knowing, needs not to be formally informed of what sins one has committed.

Thus the concept of confession as being a simple mean of informing God of what sins one has committed does not hold true.

Which leaves the aspect of self acknowledging a wrong doing to the point where one does not keep it shamefully hidden, but takes it to the open to make amendments if can be, and most importantly to become at peace with God and with one's self. The priest role in this whole scene? i think it is just a validation, a stamp of approval.

Depriving priests of marriage is denying God's gift and not found in the scriptures, but an added doctrine of the Catholic church.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:" 1 Timothy 4:1-4

Thats a prophesy if I ever saw one.

"Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?" 1 Corinthians 9:5

No one is depriving the priests of anything. The priests make a well informed and a very conscious choice before going into priesthood. They become the parents and the gardians of their own flock.

And the list goes on... I could go on for days. The Catholic church does not represent the Bible, but the Catholic doctrine, and what does God think of this:

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar" Proverbs 30:6

If you corrupt the Word of God, then you are serving the one that invented deception... Who was the first to twist God's word in the Garden Of Eden? By deceiving people, you are also denying them the true word.

of course, you could go for years based on unfounded theories, not just for days.

I would like you though to give us a concrete example as to where the Catholic Church is twisting the word of God.

[syrian]

Look, i dunno from what religious background u are, but i myself (a catholic) consider catholicism to be ONE way to practice christianity, and orthodoxism another way, and in my view, both of them are the only valid ways that exist today of practicing christianity ...

that said, let me differ with u on some points:

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

First off the Catholic church has a bloody history, it's responsible for the mass slaughter of countless of innocent people in the name of God

true, but does today's church venerate that history?? or does it despise it, and did it apologize?? the gospel is clear enough: u can kill no one, u must pray for ur enemy... those commandements were simply ignored back then, when CHURCH and STATE were one and the same... oh, julius ceasar, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's." capich???

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

Lets move on to the Catholic church doctrine, the Pope is quite simply an abomination and an evil doer according to the scriptures:

the first scripture u reported talks about "graven image" of God, "likeness" of God... do these attributes really belong to the pope??? does anyone say he's infnite like God, or immortal, or powerful, etc?

the scriptures talk mainly about things that were happening at the time of Moses, who were wrong-doing by telling ppl what to do and threatening them by blasphemating them if they dont do it... and the text u quoted talks about greedy chiefs who love "feasts", "garments", "chief seats in the synagogues,
and greetings in the markets"... does that really apply to the pope?? does he really own something in the Vatican except his tomb??

as for the "call no man your father", well, what about ur own father?? would u call him your brother?? let's just read between the lines what Jesus was saying... he was simply stating that: "those men of religion who give u order are not really binding to u... what u should prmarily follow is the Book, and then the men of religion's duty is nothing but to guide u and help u practice ur faith"... isnt that what's happening in the caholic church??

that text u quoted should be read when something happens in the church, of the kind:

- priests ask ppl in the church to demonstrate for some political reason or for some personnal interest
- priests ask ppl in the church to vote for someone specific
- priests try to bring someone to his knees by threatening him of "takfir"
etc...


and about the infallibility of the pope, i guess this concept has to get modernize... the pope is the head of a state, called the Vatican, and he has ministers and aids and a large staff of cardinals... any decision is not/not anymore taken by the pope alone... there's a whole process of discussion, etc... under the supervision of the pope... he's simply like any president of any country... and the decision he takes (if the discussion process was carried out right) MUST be the right one, at least politically speaking...
let me give u an example: when bush decided to go to war against iraq, 40% of americans were against him, but when the decision was actually taken, everyone backed the president till he declared the war was over...
of course, it turned out that the process i've talked about in this case was based on lies...

anyway, if you, Mr. Caesar, do not agree with today's pope concept, what alternative would u suggest?? remember that Jesus told Peter that he's rock, and on this rock he shall build his Church... what Church was he talking about in ur opinion?? and let's not forget that St Peter was the first Pope...

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

Confessing to priests and appointing Saints is a sin.

You are suppose to seek advice from the wise and discuss faults that might lead to sin, not confess and ask forgiveness from another sinner.

in principle, u can ask God for forgiveness directly and he might accord it to u...
but why confessing to a priest?? in my opinion, if u dont have enough courage to face a priest with ur sins, then u cannot really face God with ur sins... the law in catholic church advises u to confess to a priests because u would be more relieved to have a wise man guiding ur confession... it's not the priest who forgives u, it's God...

and as for apointing saints, ur giving no argument, so i cannot discuss that point...

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

Depriving priests of marriage is denying God's gift and not found in the scriptures, but an added doctrine of the Catholic church.

it's not about depriving... no one forced any priest or sister to become what they are, and if they choose to abandon their call, they can do it and get married and no one will forbid them...
there's a whole philosophy on forbidding priests and sisters to get married... it's not about sex here, it's about dedication to serving God, and it's about forgetting that ur a man or a woman, but simply a spirit in a human body, sexless, like angels...
im not saying that im against priests getting married... orthodox allow priests to get married, and that's not against any scripture... but i think it's more deal to have an unmarried man of religion...
it's a law to enter a catholic convent...

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats,

i've answered the marriage part above, it's a choice not a commandement... no one forces u honey...
and there's no command to abstain from meats, there not COMMAND, there are advises...

commands exist in religions like Islam and Judaism, that are built on a text that is a Divine Law (Chari3a)...
there's no chari3a in Christianity, nor in catholicism, nor does catholicism claim that its doctrines are a chari3a...

Catholic doctrines are one way to practice, understand and maintain christianity...

Now, if ur a protestant/evangelical (and allow me to counter-attack u, because u most probably are one), u need to find another place where there are ppl stupid enough to believe ur half-arguments...
Watch the tens of arabic protestant sat channels: Al-Hayat, Spirit channel, Miracle, etc... where protestant ministers pretend to be able to perform miracles, and actually do perform fake miracles in stupid places like africa, just to get ppl to follow them...
I guess that prophecy ur talking about applies more to those silly men of the so-called protestant/evangelical church...

Listen to Reverend Ahmad the lebanese protestant who claims he'd been muslim who has converted to christianity...
Listen to all those liars who have "departed from the faith" (schism from the catholic church), who are "seducing spirits" (they easily perform miracles!!!), and pronounce "doctrines of evil" from the mouth of Luther and Calvin: "the Roman catholic Church is the Babylon of the Apocalypse, the synagogue of Satan, the society of Antichrist"... great doctrine ya doctor!!!

and u ppl dont like us to call the cleric "father", but u have no problem calling him reverrend...

but honestly, from an bojective point of view, dont u think that any religious institution should have a centralized source of legislation on earth???