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Default The value of virginity - 30th April 2007

What is the value of virginity in your opinion, in these days?

I always found this issue very hypocrate, when men awaits from women in some cultures to be virgins at marriage while they dont have to be. Isnt this hypocrisy at its best? With whom have those men slept? With aliens maybe?

And if they have to keep such tradition by all means, then they shall be fair, so if a woman shall be virgin then so shall a man too, otherwise its hypocrate and discriminatory!

See the below article, how some women are pressured to undergo a surgery which gives them back their virginity, just to please their square minded environment.



Muslim women in France regain virginity in clinics
Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:20AM EDT

By Alexandra Steigrad



PARIS (Reuters) -- Sitting in a cafe near the Champs Elysees, the 26-year-old French-born woman of Algerian descent looks like any other Parisian. But two months ago, she did something none of her friends have done.

She had her hymen re-sewn, technically making her a virgin again.

"I'm glad I had it done," said the woman, who spoke to Reuters on condition of anonymity. "I wanted to reconstruct part of my life, to reconstruct myself so that I could feel better about myself."

This 30-minute outpatient procedure, called "hymenoplasty" and costing between 1,500 and 3,000 euros ($2,000-$4,000), is increasingly popular among young women of North African descent in France.

No exact figures exist to say how many such operations are done, but the woman's surgeon says he gets three to five queries and performs one to three hymenoplasties each week. Demand has been rising for the past three or four years.

Doctor Marc Abecassis, whose office is near the chic Champs Elysees, sees the rise in religion among France's five million Muslims fuelling this trend. His patients are between 18 and 45 years old, Muslim, born both in France and in North Africa.

"Many of my patients are caught between two worlds," said Abecassis. They have had sex already but are expected to be virgins at marriage according to a custom that he called "cultural and traditional, with enormous family pressure".

For this woman, the decision to have the surgery came after she broke up with a boyfriend who had pressured her into having sex. Unable to cope with breaking family tradition, she felt a hymenoplasty would help put her life back together again.

Another of Abecassis' patients, a 22-year-old Algerian immigrant who asked to be called Karima, said most young women had the operation to respect their culture or family tradition, not for religious reasons.

In fact, neither woman is a practicing Muslim. They dress, speak and act like other young Parisians, but are also part of a growing silent group of women who juggle traditional Muslim and modern French values.

All the women who spoke to Reuters did so condition that their identities not be revealed.

DON'T DISAPPOINT THE FIANCE

Karima also lost her virginity to an ex-boyfriend. She plans to marry soon and her fiancé expects her to be a virgin. So last month, she commuted in from an eastern suburb of Paris, where she lives with her parents, and had the surgery.

The next day she was back at work. "I don't want to disappoint my fiancé," she said, adjusting her glasses and brushing her highlighted brown hair from her face. "I wouldn't have had the surgery if I hadn't met him."

A leading Muslim spokesman said Islam says bride and groom should be virgins before marriage, but did not take a clear stand for or against hymenoplasties.

"If someone committed a sin, the essential thing is to repent," said Lhaj Thami Breze, head of the Union of French Islamic Organizations.

For many doctors, resewing the hymen goes against their ideals of sexual freedom and personal liberty.

"The surgery is an attack on women's dignity," said Professor Jacques Lansac, president of The National College of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians of France. "We will not take part in a market that places value on the quality of a woman -- if she's good or not. It is an attack on women's liberty."

He also argued that any doctor who performed these operations at state hospitals violated France's legal separation of church and state.

The church-state issue flared up in 2004 when France passed a law banning religious garb, notably headscarves, from state primary and secondary schools.

Since then, Abecassis said, some Muslims in France have been putting much more emphasis on certain customs as a way of expressing their identity. "Today it's the two 'V's' -- veil and virginity," he said. "It's a social phenomenon."

Surprisingly, French social security reimburses some of the cost of the operation in cases of rape or trauma. "Ninety-nine percent of the time, the claim is a fraud," he added.

Still, Abecassis defended the operations and said he helped patients who could not pay his 2,500 euro fee. "This surgery gives them another chance," he said. "It's a rehabilitation. For many, it's the only solution."

ANOTHER PATIENT AWAITS

Sitting in the same cafe, a 19-year-old Moroccan studying in Paris who asked to be called Amel spoke just before her first consultation with Abecassis.

"I dated a boy when I was 15 and I didn't even realize what had happened," she said, referring to her first and only sexual experience. "I didn't understand what I did."

Her parents introduced her to a young man earlier this year, and they plan to wed when she returns to Morocco in June. But he would not accept a non-virgin, so she needs the operation soon.

Amel is scraping together the monthly allowance sent by her parents and emptying her savings account to pay for it. Two friends back home will lend her the remaining 1,000 euros.

"If my mother ever found out about this, she would have a mental breakdown," Amel said. "I don't want to have this surgery, but I don't have any choice."

Reuters
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Default 30th April 2007

I think the men who will marry those who have undergone this surgery will probably have a very miserable marital life. You can't live with someone decades without a minimum of honesty. Come to think of it, both will probably won't enjoy their marriage.

Honesty > virginity.
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Default 30th April 2007

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Originally Posted by lebanesecanadian View Post
I think the men who will marry those who have undergone this surgery will probably have a very miserable marital life. You can't live with someone decades without a minimum of honesty. Come to think of it, both will probably won't enjoy their marriage.

Honesty > virginity.
Those women are forced into this unfortunate situation, blame rather those men who created and are still maintaining such twisted system, those make these women feel unworthy if they are not virgins, while they allow themselves to be non-virgins!
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Default 30th April 2007

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Originally Posted by Stella View Post
Those women are forced into this unfortunate situation, blame rather those men who created and are still maintaining such twisted system, those make these women feel unworthy if they are not virgins, while they allow themselves to be non-virgins!

It is a twisted and sexist attitude. But the women aren't forced to undergo this kind of surgery, if your guy is such a jerk than just don't marry him. You'll probably end up fighting in no time anyways.
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Default 30th April 2007

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Originally Posted by lebanesecanadian View Post
It is a twisted and sexist attitude. But the women aren't forced to undergo this kind of surgery, if your guy is such a jerk than just don't marry him. You'll probably end up fighting in no time anyways.
Ok read the above article then, I understand that these woman are caught between two systems, and sometimes its not so easy to escape your environment! I think you know well what may happen if some try in several cases, like in the case of this 19 year old turkish girl. These discrimantions are truly enraging, and i dont know how can we deal with it, to treat the root cause. Which is: in some societies the women have less value than men!!
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Default 30th April 2007

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Originally Posted by Stella View Post
Ok read the above article then, I understand that these woman are caught between two systems, and sometimes its not so easy to escape your environment! I think you know well what may happen if some try in several cases, like in the case of this 19 year old turkish girl. These discrimantions are truly enraging, and i dont know how can we deal with it, to treat the root cause. Which is: in some societies the women have less value than men!!
Oops... Sorry. I was talking about women that have a right to choose their husbands. In that case, I totally agree with you.
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Default 30th April 2007

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Originally Posted by lebanesecanadian View Post
Oops... Sorry. I was talking about women that have a right to choose their husbands. In that case, I totally agree with you.
Yes unfortunately those women who undergo that surgery are not doing it out of self confidence boosting or something, they do it becasue their environment, culture are forcing them to do so, bc otherwise they will have to face the consequences!

This was happening in France, so I also blame the French government being uncapable to handle the immigrant issue properly, it seems they lack any integration plan or whatsoever! In addition they fail to protect these women to not to face persecution.

And of course basically theres a problem with the mentality in these cultures, which is discriminatory! Really how can they be such hypocrates, while men sleeping with several women before they get married, they await from women to be virgins??? /either they do it with aliens, or all of them are visiting Thailand sex tourism??? I doubt!/

In addition not to mention all those abuse and mistreat, honor killings etc..against women, like in the above mentioned article!

All these are very saddening, and that something like this is allowed in a country where there would be means to protect women's rights.
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Default 30th April 2007

i agree with stella this is hipocricy at its peak !

i think when a man is not capable of giving him self as a virgin to the woman he will marry he does nt have the right to ask her to be a virgin !
those women are under pressure and are forced in a way or in another to lie just to be on the safe side ! for God sake we are living in the 21th century and it is realy scary to see ppl living in the most developed and culturel countries yet insiste on keeping their minds and habits in neanderthal era !
verginity in itself is not in that piece of "hymen" . true virginity is in the caractere in the soul in the mind in the purity of the person as a whole . what if a girl had a life full of "sexual experiences" and when the time come for mariage she go and fix her virginity will this make her pure and innocent in the eyes of the stupid blind man who only care about her "virginity" and will only judge her purity upon this kind of virginity , will this make her perfect ? this is sick because they simply force the woman to lie and deny her right to be what she is with all her experience and womanhood ! !
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Default 30th April 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella View Post
What is the value of virginity in your opinion, in these days?

I always found this issue very hypocrate, when men awaits from women in some cultures to be virgins at marriage while they dont have to be. Isnt this hypocrisy at its best? With whom have those men slept? With aliens maybe?

And if they have to keep such tradition by all means, then they shall be fair, so if a woman shall be virgin then so shall a man too, otherwise its hypocrate and discriminatory!

See the below article, how some women are pressured to undergo a surgery which gives them back their virginity, just to please their square minded environment.
I don't want to say that virginity doesn't have a value... because it does! however its value should only be determined by the woman and not by the society... whether she would like to preserve it, lose it for the sake of losing it, or giving it to a special person, it's up to her, and her only...and she shall not be judged for whatever decision she's making!

and it is hypocrite indeed... religiously speaking, they should both abstain if they're single... besides, there's a sort of contract (only done among Shiites...i don't know if sunnis have a version of it) which allow a person to have sex without getting married!... which i personally think is very interesting, since it preserves the woman right in case of a pregnancy where this contract automatically becomes (if she wishes to) a legal marriages.
But sadly enough, certain traditions still force virginity and people start forging into little girls heads that no man will marry her if she's not a virgin.... and those girls become terrified to never be able to have a family and to be looked at as s**ts!

i've heard a better story then this one... actually here in Belgium before a north african girl gets married, she should get a virginity certificate from a gynecologist (chosen by the grooms mother) and gives it to her future in-laws as a proof!!! how retarded is that??? what does the groom mother has to do with this??? what a great marriage if even before getting married the mother in-law is interfering in the brides affairs!! (very intimate affairs!!)

but the again, what kind of relationship a woman is expecting when she's starting her married life with a huge lie! besides how will she fake her ignorance in bed??
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Default 1st May 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xena View Post
I don't want to say that virginity doesn't have a value... because it does! however its value should only be determined by the woman and not by the society... whether she would like to preserve it, lose it for the sake of losing it, or giving it to a special person, it's up to her, and her only...and she shall not be judged for whatever decision she's making!

and it is hypocrite indeed... religiously speaking, they should both abstain if they're single... besides, there's a sort of contract (only done among Shiites...i don't know if sunnis have a version of it) which allow a person to have sex without getting married!... which i personally think is very interesting, since it preserves the woman right in case of a pregnancy where this contract automatically becomes (if she wishes to) a legal marriages.
I totally agree with you on the first point, it is the woman's decision, it is her body after all, she can judge better.

About regaining virginity, well.. I wonder how great she would feel about her lie on her wedding night. I say it is as hypocrite as that thing you mentioned and that is called Mutah or temporary mariage. It is either you have sex or you don't, no need for these playing-smart-on-"God"-and-the-society thingies.
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