The relationship between atheism and communism

[Abu Ruman]

One can argue against communism - as an ideology militantly opposed to religion.

But that doesnt have anything to do with atheism. Atheism is just a denial of God. Just as a-unicornism is a denial of unicorns. Its a simple description.

Description and ideology are two different things.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by Abu Ruman

One can argue against communism - as an ideology militantly opposed to religion.

But that doesnt have anything to do with atheism. Atheism is just a denial of God. Just as a-unicornism is a denial of unicorns. Its a simple description.

Description and ideology are two different things.

That's were I disagree with you Abu Ruman, because I think communism was a product of Atheist thought. In other words, the rise of communism was a direct result of the rise of Atheism in the enlightment era. The enlightment period had it's positives especially when it came to weakening the tyrannical grip of the Church, but it also had it's negatives and there was nothing enlightening about communism & socialism; it almost brought back Europe to the Dark Ages.

[Abu Ruman]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

That's were I disagree with you Abu Ruman, because I think communism was a product of Atheist thought. In other words, the rise of communism was a direct result of the rise of Atheism in the enlightment era. The enlightment period had it's positives especially when it came to weakening the tyrannical grip of the Church, but it also had it's negatives and there was nothing enlightening about communism & socialism; it almost brought back Europe to the Dark Ages.

I disagree. The enlightenment did not give birth to ideology, it just provided a venue for those who wanted to think freely, without living under the constraint of authoritarian institutions (like the church).

How this gave birth (centuries later) to a militant ideology like communism, leaves me perplexed.

Again, I am not one to attack theism. The belief in God (in my opinion) is harmless. It is the acceptance of ideologies which inscribe that belief (or lack therof), which concerns me.

Look at the most recent topic we've been talking about: Iran. There, it is not the belief in Allah (alone) that is dangerous, it is the notion of ideologizing that precept into the be-all and end-all of our belief system. It is not the denial of God which has virally infected our humanity, it is the impulse which predisposes us to absolutize that denial of that concept (God) into the entire framework of thinking freely, which leaves us with no room left to think freely at all, anymore.

The enlightenment provided us with that leeway to think freely, it did not dictate to us a specific particulate for which we had to think through; thats exactly the opposite of what it intended. Religion and communism, on the other hand, do not provide that free continuum at all. They have militantly occupied every increment of it, by predicating exactly what we need to think and believe in. There is no gap for free-thought. These ideologies are absolute and chauvinistic, inherently, in every sense of the word.

That is the infinite difference.

[Claudia]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

That's were I disagree with you Abu Ruman, because I think communism was a product of Atheist thought. In other words, the rise of communism was a direct result of the rise of Atheism in the enlightment era. The enlightment period had it's positives especially when it came to weakening the tyrannical grip of the Church, but it also had it's negatives and there was nothing enlightening about communism & socialism; it almost brought back Europe to the Dark Ages.

Yupili!!!!!
Great Post! I agree atheism is the reason for the success of Communism.
But even if communism wasn't a product of atheism I wouldn't like it. Communism doesn't respect People, for some reason communist countries are very poor. Communism is also anti-democratic that's why it can survive only when it can control ALL the information, including beliefs.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by Abu Ruman

I disagree. The enlightenment did not give birth to ideology, it just provided a venue for those who wanted to think freely, without living under the constraint of authoritarian institutions (like the church).

That's what I meant, the decline of "God" or "faith" in the enlightenment era created the necessary conditions for communist ideals to grow and eventually applied practically. Atheism provided the venue for people to think & oppress freely as the Church did before it. That's the point I was making. If you are going to blame Christianity for the actions of a Church that often misused and corrupted the teachings of the Bible, then you would have to blame Atheism for the rise of communism.

How this gave birth (centuries later) to a militant ideology like communism, leaves me perplexed.

It wasn't centuries later. The seeds of communism were sowed in the late 1700s; the “League of the Just” was founded in 1836. The Age of Enlightenment was an intellectual movement in 18th-century Europe which could be tracked back to the 17th century.

Again, I am not one to attack theism. The belief in God (in my opinion) is harmless. It is the acceptance of ideologies which inscribe that belief (or lack therof), which concerns me.

As a religious person, I share your concern. Ultimately, what counts is how people use their religion. And for the most part of history, religion has been used to justify persecution and criminal activity.

Look at the most recent topic we've been talking about: Iran. There, it is not the belief in Allah (alone) that is dangerous, it is the notion of ideologizing that precept into the be-all and end-all of our belief system. It is not the denial of God which has virally infected our humanity, it is the impulse which predisposes us to absolutize that denial of that concept (God) into the entire framework of thinking freely, which leaves us with no room left to think freely at all, anymore.

The enlightenment provided us with that leeway to think freely, it did not dictate to us a specific particulate for which we had to think through; thats exactly the opposite of what it intended. Religion and communism, on the other hand, do not provide that free continuum at all. They have militantly occupied every increment of it, by predicating exactly what we need to think and believe in. There is no gap for free-thought. These ideologies are absolute and chauvinistic, inherently, in every sense of the word.

That is the infinite difference.

I agree completely, but I would also add that when you drive out God from your borders, then you will have madmen in living color & flesh replacing him. Judaism & Christianity have the Book of Law and a summary of it known as the Ten Commandments. Atheism does not have this anchor or common ideal that everyone can rally behind and abide by; but rather it's free for all like you said. Eventually, you will find yourself at the mercy of the most ambitious, cruel and inhumane individuals who will use any method to seize power, and usually these methods have no boundaries even when compared to the worst religious leaders.

What I've always found so conceptually correct about the argument against Atheism or elimination of God, is not necessarily the inherent bashing of non-religious thought, but the notion that religion was not itself a failure. I think sometimes we get a bit blindsided by emotions and ignore the substance of the argument.

Christianity itself is governed by law and guidlines. Were these laws and guidelines always applied correctly? No, of course not, nor were they always the most inclusionary, but Christianity when used properly as in the U.S. and modern day Western Europe does allow for independent thought, the exchange of ideas, debate and inclusion according to precedent in the scriptures rather than the whims of an individual. Christianity has plenty of features in place to deal with various crises, even if they aren't always handled the best way by men. The problem is not with Christianity itself, but the idea that it depends upon the continued restraint and dignity of individuals not to corrupt it for personal gain. Did this sometimes depend upon the sentiment of the times and the power of various factions within Christianity? Of course it did, but the ideology of Christianity was always there and it was applied most appropriately when extreme transgressions were committed. Laws were broken by various members of the Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant Church etc. at any given time, but the rule of law was still generally applied.

Ultimately, imperfect men fail God because of weakness, personal ambitions and the stubbornness of individuals. Christianity is absolute but just. Unfortunately though, the precedent for personal ambition and even corruption was set above the glory of God. To vie for that power by whatever means necessary became the status quo. Christianity as an institution could do little do stop this trend because demagoguery of individuals had overtaken the original and true ideology, it is the failure of individuals to be blamed and not Christianity itself, which is perfect. Men such as the Popes of Rome for circumventing the law to obtain absolute power in the first place and revolutionary men such as John Calvin for falling in the same trap of organized religion may have both been products of a devolving religious environment, but again it is not necessarily the fault of the Christian ideology itself.

In a modern nation founded on Atheism or non-religion, what is stopping an individual or leader from seeking ultimate power or personal glory? Very little. Christianity as it is written is the most suitable form of governance especially when compared to other attempted forms of religion, and this is reflected today by modern Christian nations.

Again, I will reiterate that I personally respect & recognize the positive achievements of Atheists, but I can also readily admit that the decline of religion is synonymous with the decline of morality in this day & age.

[gramsci]

Originally Posted by Claudia

Yupili!!!!!
Great Post! I agree atheism is the reason for the success of Communism.
But even if communism wasn't a product of atheism I wouldn't like it. Communism doesn't respect People, for some reason communist countries are very poor. Communism is also anti-democratic that's why it can survive only when it can control ALL the information, including beliefs.

being atheist , rationally communism will be ur choice, thats doesnt mean there is other choices , many atheists are liberal and even anti communist ,

communism as economic social approach , viewed as the best system for the humanity , despite all the errors made in many commnist countries ,
communist ideology based on humanism , equal destribution of the opporunities , anarchism . and many otehr values
and under this title many counrties , groups movements operated .
socialism is considered a fase of communism .
if we look deeply , on what hitler made in the name of national socialism , ull understand how good ideology been manipulated for specific wrong reasons.

anyway for all who like it or not , communism is our future , logically . :)
claudia i raccomend u this book ; joseph schumpeter : capitalism , socialism and democracy

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by gramsci

anyway for all who like it or not , communism is our future , logically . :)

Are you even in touch with reality? You are romaticizing about communism to the point that you are intoxicated with it. Communism is a thing of the past, it failed miserably in every sense of the word and it's as dead as Karl Marx, Lenin and Stalin.

[gramsci]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

Are you even in touch with reality? You are romaticizing about communism to the point that you are intoxicated with it. Communism is a thing of the past, it failed in every sense of the word and it is dead.

im talking from an economic - filosophical point of view , thats my idea ,
ur free to accept it or not :)
forget about the soviet union , cuba . china . north korea .hungary and stella :) ..etc ..

just take a look on the economical distribution and economical growth , dont limit it on ur own country , im talking from a global view ,
it conncern the difference between the south and the north , the ambiental sostinebility , the human catastrophs , the ecocomic and production cycles , the cultural , etnical religious conflict , the globalisation , the multinational companies ..etc .

if ur base ur view on what do nasdaq and dow jones give u , or about the lebanese bank information , thats sure ull never understand my view point and the easiest thing to say ,: communism is dead , get a touch with the reality :)

[gramsci]

Originally Posted by Claudia

Yupili!!!!!
Great Post! I agree atheism is the reason for the success of Communism.
But even if communism wasn't a product of atheism I wouldn't like it. Communism doesn't respect People, for some reason communist countries are very poor. Communism is also anti-democratic that's why it can survive only when it can control ALL the information, including beliefs.

u know very well claudia that in a liberal economy based on consumerism , ur not totally free and ur totally controlled !ur life is intrused even much more than in a strict communist regime in a total state of war
do u know what market resarch are ? :) and what is the data base ? the only difference that in the ex soviet era there was something called cold war and there was a big tension ,

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Originally Posted by gramsci

im talking from an economic - filosophical point of view , thats my idea ,
ur free to accept it or not :)
forget about the soviet union , cuba . china . north korea .hungary and stella :) ..etc ..

just take a look on the economical distribution and economical growth , dont limit it on ur own country , im talking from a global view ,
it conncern the difference between the south and the north , the ambiental sostinebility , the human catastrophs , the ecocomic and production cycles , the cultural , etnical religious conflict , the globalisation , the multinational companies ..etc .

if ur base ur view on what do nasdaq and dow jones give u , or about the lebanese bank information , thats sure ull never understand my view point and the easiest thing to say ,: communism is dead , get a touch with the reality :)

That's exactly were communism fails, in it's economic philosophy first and foremost. Without a free market, you have no real economy, just a bureaucracy that is inefficient and corrupt.