Jesus Camps: The Army of God

[BOILER]

Originally Posted by DaManInChrist

It depends. There are many variations within pentecostalism. Some might be biblical ... some might be not. Although I strongly disagree with the pentecostal teaching that a person will inevitably speak in tongues once he is baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Personally, I reject the teachings of any local church (whether pentecostal or evangelical or non-denominational or other) that are not biblical. Even if the pastor of the local church that I attend teaches something unbiblical, I will not accept it.

I heard they are found in Lebanon.
Can we say that they don't represent a big part of evangelicals here in leb?
Have you participated in one of their ceremonies?
If yes, can you tell us about it?
Is it true, they lock you up in order to bring the evil spirit out of you?

[Chrysostomos]

Originally Posted by Osiris

Many examples, it's not only Egyptian and Greek "gods" !

Many old civilizations gods were born on or very near to 25 December, in a cave, of a virgin mother.. Many of them were called "savior" and they rose from the dead.

Some examples:

Osiris/Horus: In the Egyptian myth, Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable, as in “I and my Father are one.” Osiris flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth.”

Osiris' "son" or renewed incarnation, Horus, was called called "KRST," the "Anointed One".. born in a cave of the virgin Isis-Meri in 25 December, his earthly father name is Joseph, at age 12 he was a child teacher in temples and at 30 he was baptized, he performed miracles, he was killed by the forces of evil (his brother Seth), but he rose from the dead. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by his disciples on the Vernal Equinox... mmm Easter anyone?


Mithras: He was also born in a cave, in 25 December and you guessed it, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their "sin". He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God."


Krishna: Was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, performed many miracles, healed.. "The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven"

And many many other examples like Tammuz, Dionysus/Bacchus, Horus...


By the way, all these gods existed way before Jesus: Osiris appeared in the pyramid texts around 2400 BC, Mithras in the 2nd century BC.

mmmm.. interesting.

Dear Osiris,

first of all Christianity is a monotheistic religion which believes in One God Who was Manifested in The Flesh as Jesus Christ.

The statement that Jesus is God necessarily implies that God took on human flesh. This is in fact what the Bible says.

1. "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16; see verse 15 for further confirmation that God is the subject of verse 16). God was manifest (made visible) in flesh; God was justified (shown to be right) in the Spirit; God was seen of angels; God was believed on in the world; and God was received up into glory. How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

2. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

Secondly,
Many verses of Scripture declare Jesus Christ to be the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh for the purpose of self-revelation and reconciliation.

3. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Corinthians 5:19).

4. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [spoken, revealed] him" (John 1:18).

5. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son… the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…" (Hebrew 1:1-3).

6. Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

7. He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20). As Abraham prophesied, probably without understanding the full meaning of his own words, "God will provide himself a lamb" (Genesis 22:8). God indeed provided a body for Himself: "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5).

8. Jesus was the builder of the house (God the Father and Creator) and also a son over his own house (Hebrews 3:3-6).

9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).


Jesus is the Father

If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point. .

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.


4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).


The passages i stated above verify that Jesus is God Himself not like Horus, Osiris and Isis who were 3 seperated entities.
I wish if you will read all the passages with a free mind and an open heart.


Regards and God bless

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by Chrysostomos

The passages i stated above verify that Jesus is God Himself not like Horus, Osiris and Isis who were 3 seperated entities.
I wish if you will read all the passages with a free mind and an open heart.


Regards and God bless

I read the passages.

Chrysostomos, I have no problem with anything in your passages, I just stated how similar Jesus is to the gods I mentioned (which existed thousands of years before)! You did not reply to that.

[Omeros]

Originally Posted by Chrysostomos

Dear Osiris,

first of all Christianity is a monotheistic religion which believes in One God Who was Manifested in The Flesh as Jesus Christ.

The statement that Jesus is God necessarily implies that God took on human flesh. This is in fact what the Bible says.

1. "God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory" (I Timothy 3:16; see verse 15 for further confirmation that God is the subject of verse 16). God was manifest (made visible) in flesh; God was justified (shown to be right) in the Spirit; God was seen of angels; God was believed on in the world; and God was received up into glory. How and when did all of this happen? In Jesus Christ.

2. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… And the Word was made flesh…" (John 1:1, 14). Literally, the Word (God) was tabernacled or tented in flesh. When did God tabernacle or robe Himself in flesh? In Jesus Christ. Both verses of Scripture prove that Jesus is God - that He is God manifest (revealed, made known, made evident, displayed, shown) in flesh.

Secondly,
Many verses of Scripture declare Jesus Christ to be the God of the Old Testament robed in flesh for the purpose of self-revelation and reconciliation.

3. "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself" (II Corinthians 5:19).

4. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [spoken, revealed] him" (John 1:18).

5. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son… the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person…" (Hebrew 1:1-3).

6. Jesus is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15; II Corinthians 4:4).

7. He is God veiled in flesh (Hebrews 10:20). As Abraham prophesied, probably without understanding the full meaning of his own words, "God will provide himself a lamb" (Genesis 22:8). God indeed provided a body for Himself: "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me" (Hebrews 10:5).

8. Jesus was the builder of the house (God the Father and Creator) and also a son over his own house (Hebrews 3:3-6).

9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).


Jesus is the Father

If there is only one God and that God is the Father (Malachi 2:10), and if Jesus is God, then it logically follows that Jesus is the Father. For those who somehow think that Jesus can be God and still not be the Father, we will offer additional biblical proof that Jesus is the Father. This will serve as more evidence that Jesus is God. Actually two verses of Scripture are sufficient to prove this point. .

1. Isaiah 9:6 calls the Son the everlasting Father. Jesus is the Son prophesied about and there is only one Father (Malachi 2:10; Ephesians 4:6), so Jesus must be God the Father.

2. Colossians 2:9 proclaims that all the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus. The Godhead includes the role of Father, so the Father must dwell in Jesus.

3. In addition to these two verses, Jesus Himself taught that He was the Father. Once, when Jesus was talking about the Father, the Pharisees asked, "Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also" (John 8:19). Jesus went on to say, "I said therefore unto you, if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins" (John 8:24).

We should note that he in the verse is in italics, which indicates that it is not in the original Greek, being added by the translators. Jesus was really identifying Himself with the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14. The Jews, who did not understand His meaning, asked, "Who art thou?" Jesus answered, "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). However, "they understood not that he spake to them of the Father" (John 8:27). In other words, Jesus tried to tell them that He was the Father and the I AM, and that if they did not accept Him as God they would die in their sins.


4. In another place Jesus said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30). Some try to say that He was one with the Father much as a husband and wife are one or as two men can be one in agreement. This interpretation attempts to weaken the force of the assertion Jesus made. However, other verses fully support that Jesus was not only the Son in His humanity but also the Father in His deity.

5. For example, Jesus stated in John 12:45, "And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." In other words, if a person sees Jesus as to His deity, he sees the Father.

6. In John 14:7 Jesus told His disciples, "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him." Upon hearing this statement, Philip requested, "Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us" (John 14:8). In other words, he asked that Jesus show them the Father and then they would be satisfied. Jesus' answer was, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake" (John 14:9-11). This statement goes far beyond a relationship of agreement; it can be viewed as nothing less that the claim of Christ to be the Father manifested in flesh. Like many people today, Philip had not comprehended that the Father is an invisible Spirit and that the only way a person could ever see Him would be through the person of Jesus Christ.

7. Jesus said, "The Father is in me, and I in him" (John 10:38).

8. Jesus promised to be the Father of all overcomers (Revelation 21:6-7).

9. In John 14:18 Jesus said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." The Greek word translated "comfortless" is orphanos, which Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines as "bereaved ('orphans'), i.e. parentless." Jesus was saying, "I will not leave you as orphans" (NIV and TAB), or "I will not leave you fatherless: I will come to you." Jesus, speaking as the Father, promised that He would not leave His disciples fatherless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Below are some comparisons which provide additional proof that Jesus is the Father.

10. Jesus prophesied that He would resurrect His own body from the dead in three days (John 2:19-21), yet Peter preached that God raised up Jesus from the dead (Acts 2:24).

11. Jesus said He would send the Comforter to us (John 16:7), but He also said the Father would send the Comforter (John 14:26).

12. The Father alone can draw men to God (John 6:44), yet Jesus said He would draw all men (John 12:32).

13. Jesus will raise up all believers at the last day (John 6:40), yet God the Father quickens (gives life to) the dead and will raise us up (Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14).

14. Jesus promised to answer the believer's prayer (John 14:14), yet He said the Father would answer prayer (John 16:23).

15. Christ is our sanctifier (Ephesians 5:26), yet the Father sanctifies us (Jude 1).

16. First John 3:1, 5 states that the Father loved us and was manifested to take away our sins, yet we know it was Christ who was manifested in the world to take away sin (John 1:29-31).


The passages i stated above verify that Jesus is God Himself not like Horus, Osiris and Isis who were 3 seperated entities.
I wish if you will read all the passages with a free mind and an open heart.


Regards and God bless

chris...... osiris i guess ken 3m be faser my idea ...il ne voulait pas dire se que t'a explique c'est tout ..y a pas toujours une mauvaise intension :)
il a explique abt osiris et isis ....et les point commun j'y crois avec la vie de jesus ...
en effet se sujet depuis 3 mois ca ma choque il y avait un docteur dans mon univ qui a parler a propos et je ne savais exactement cest qui so mercy osiris and 10x chrisostomnos 3al tewdy7

[DaManInChrist]

Originally Posted by Osiris

Many examples, it's not only Egyptian and Greek "gods" !

No offense, my friend ... but you call yourself Osiris, yet you don't know much about Osiris or Egyptian Mythology.

Many old civilizations gods were born on or very near to 25 December, in a cave, of a virgin mother.. Many of them were called "savior" and they rose from the dead.

First of all, the Bible never says when Jesus was born, so the part about December 25 is totally irrelevant. Second thing ... if you check in the original mythologies themselves ... you'll see that many of the characters, that some of today's skeptics claim influenced the character of Jesus, are portrayed very differently from how some people today portray them.

In other words, the stories of such pagan characters did not influence the character and deeds of Jesus. It is actually the other way around.

Some examples:

Osiris/Horus: In the Egyptian myth, Horus and his once-and-future Father, Osiris, are frequently interchangeable, as in “I and my Father are one.” Osiris flesh was eaten in the form of communion cakes of wheat, the “plant of Truth.”

Osiris' "son" or renewed incarnation, Horus, was called called "KRST," the "Anointed One".. born in a cave of the virgin Isis-Meri in 25 December, his earthly father name is Joseph, at age 12 he was a child teacher in temples and at 30 he was baptized, he performed miracles, he was killed by the forces of evil (his brother Seth), but he rose from the dead. His suffering, death, and resurrection celebrated each year by his disciples on the Vernal Equinox... mmm Easter anyone?

I don't remember reading any of that in Egyptian Mythology. Strange ...

Could you please point me to the sources of Egyptian Mythology that support what you say? Note ... I want the original sources ... not the sites that you got these ideas from.

Mithras: He was also born in a cave, in 25 December and you guessed it, of a virgin mother. He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their "sin". He was know as "Savior," "Son of God," "Redeemer," and "Lamb of God."

Similar to above. Please refer me to the original sources that say all that.

Krishna: Was born of the virgin Devaki in a cave, performed many miracles, healed.. "The crucified Krishna is pictured on the cross with arms extended. Pierced by an arrow while hanging on the cross, Krishna died, but descended into Hell from which He rose again on the third day and ascended into Heaven"

That's not what Hinduism says, though. Are you sure you're posting facts? And not lies by certain people with an agenda?

And many many other examples like Tammuz, Dionysus/Bacchus, Horus...

Yes, many examples ... yet not one verification.

By the way, all these gods existed way before Jesus: Osiris appeared in the pyramid texts around 2400 BC, Mithras in the 2nd century BC.

mmmm.. interesting.

The characters were created before Jesus was born. This I don't doubt. What I doubt are the claims made about them.

I need verifications, Osiris.

[DaManInChrist]

Originally Posted by BOILER

I heard they are found in Lebanon.
Can we say that they don't represent a big part of evangelicals here in leb?
Have you participated in one of their ceremonies?
If yes, can you tell us about it?
Is it true, they lock you up in order to bring the evil spirit out of you?

Well, BOILER, my friend, I guess I'm not the right person to answer your questions. I live in Australia and was born again here ... so I'm not familiar much with the evangelical/pentecostal churches in Lebanon.

And I have never been to a pentecostal church ... even here in Australia.

[Chrysostomos]

Originally Posted by Osiris

I just stated how similar Jesus is to the gods I mentioned (which existed thousands of years before)! You did not reply to that.

1. First, consider whether an allegation, even if it were true, would actually matter.
Some allegations are inconsequential. For example, the allegation that Christians stole the practice of celebrating on Dec. 25 from pagans. Even if this were true, it wouldn't matter, because the tradition of celebrating Christmas on Dec. 25 has not changed the theology of Christianity. In fact, the reverse is true - the theology of Christianity has changed the traditions involving Dec. 25.

As a theologian asserted in 320, "We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it."

2. Does the allegation include an attribution, citation or source?
Often, there is no historical evidence to support many of the claims that Christianity borrowed from paganism. This is particularly true for Kersey Graves in his The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors. If a scholar or writer fails to produce evidence to support a claim, consider the possibility that the evidence doesn't exist.

3. Does the allegation involve a meaningful similarity between paganism and Christianity?
While it might be said in a general sense that Dionysus and Jesus both die and return to life, the details are extremely different in their nature and theology.

4. If there is a similar belief in paganism and Christianity, who had it first?
Even though the mythology of Adonis is older than Christianity, the first-known evidence of a tradition that he rose again after dying is contained in a second century writing, which is too recent to have influenced the New Testament. Pagan traditions, even those that pre-date Christianity, changed over time, sometimes adopting and adapting elements of Christianity.

5. And, most importantly, can the Christian belief be traced back to the Old Testament?
If a Christian belief, whether it involves the Eucharist, baptism, the virgin birth, or resurrection, etc., can be traced back to the Old Testament, then there is no need to suspect or conclude that it was "borrowed" from a pagan source. After all, the New Testament writers made it clear that the New Testament was to be regarded as the continuation and fulfillment of the Old Testament.

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by DaManInChrist

No offense, my friend ... but you call yourself Osiris, yet you don't know much about Osiris or Egyptian Mythology.

Dear, it's none of your business if I know something about Egyptian mythology. Your job is to respond to what I stated.

First of all, the Bible never says when Jesus was born, so the part about December 25 is totally irrelevant. Second thing ... if you check in the original mythologies themselves ... you'll see that many of the characters, that some of today's skeptics claim influenced the character of Jesus, are portrayed very differently from how some people today portray them.

In other words, the stories of such pagan characters did not influence the character and deeds of Jesus. It is actually the other way around.

Let me see.. which one do you think is older here:

I don't remember reading any of that in Egyptian Mythology. Strange ...

Pick some better books.

Could you please point me to the sources of Egyptian Mythology that support what you say? Note ... I want the original sources ... not the sites that you got these ideas from.

I advice you to check the pyramid texts translation. A good book is: Writings from the Ancient World - The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts by Peter Der Manuelian. They have everything about what I mentioned.

[DaManInChrist]

Originally Posted by Osiris

Dear, it's none of your business if I know something about Egyptian mythology. Your job is to respond to what I stated.

And your job is to show me that you're familiar with the myths of ancient Egypt.

Let me see.. which one do you think is older here:

So? What's so unique about statues of women holding their babies? How does this prove that Mary and Jesus are copies of those in the first picture?

I remember seeing my mother holding my little brother (when he was a baby) ... does this mean they are copies of Mary and Jesus?

Pick some better books.

Such as?

Please give me a link to the original sources of Egyptian Mythology.

[Osiris]

Originally Posted by DaManInChrist

And your job is to show me that you're familiar with the myths of ancient Egypt.

So? What's so unique about statues of women holding their babies? How does this prove that Mary and Jesus are copies of those in the first picture?

I remember seeing my mother holding my little brother (when he was a baby) ... does this mean they are copies of Mary and Jesus?

Such as?

Please give me a link to the original sources of Egyptian Mythology.

Yes.. will post something about this topic in the future.
Meanwhile, I mentioned some references in my previous post, better than any website. Try to get these.

brother, I think it's better to discuss this in another thread. We both went off-topic. Sorry for that.