How the BigBang proves the existence of God.

[I_Am_LebanoN]

Originally Posted by JD06

thts the same argument u used b4 only ths time u applied it to humans,,in my opinion humans do all these things , is it gods fault tht thr is cancer, is it gods fault tht the palestinians are in the state thy r in ,is it gods fault tht 100,000 ppl died in our civil war,, humans create all tht is bad in life ,, hala2 if u tell me how come thr is a god when a earthquake happens and kills many ppl , i dont no u cant possibly expect me to no how he/she thinks

IF god does exist, and he lets children every where die of hunger, or wars , when chidren are born sick and dying, then i don't support god.

[JD06]

i agree with u oringina , it is a waste of time thinking about it bhass u will never have proof,, but i was just trying to say in a easy way tht in my religion(christian) god cannot or will not control u , so he cant stop us killing each other he cant stop us creating diseases and he cant stop us sinning , its a choice we have to make , if all humanity pulled toghethr and forgot about money and materialism , im 100% sure we could solve all these messed up problems
iamlebanon its not god who's letting thm go hungry its us , u really think if a country like america wanted to stop world hunger it couldnt?

[Chrysostomos]

Originally Posted by Orangina

Please wake up...

How a beautiful green tree will prove the existence of god when i see numbers and numbers of miserable people not even having a shadow to get rest

How a cute bird will prove the existence of god when i see pure little sick children only hearing the sound of the hospitals machine, coz they are trying to fight cancer

How an amazing blue sky will prove the existence of god when i see all those wars?

Spare your emotions guys...

Imagine it! a privileged man "who had everything" actually runs to a penniless peasant prophet and falls at his feet. He was probably a man about town (he was a synagogue ruler), a community leader, and a "winner". He'd made a lot of money, had climbed to the top of his profession, and was highly thought of by everyone. But obviously he'd found himself asking: "Is this all there is to life? Is there nothing more to look forward to? Do I have to spend the rest of my days with boring, plastic, but so-called successful - and yet empty - people?" Perhaps he'd heard Jesus talking about being like a child to enter the kingdom and was asking "Well, how do you do it?" He had some of the right qualities: he was direct, and apparently teachable. So Jesus asks: "Are you obedient?" "Yes - from childhood," he replies. Jesus could have said, "Are you keeping something from me?" but He didn't. Jesus accepted his response, and looked at him with love. Then the crunch: "Do you have a child-like obedience? Go, sell all you have, give the money to the poor ... and come, follow Me."
Poor rich man. He needed his money to give him security, to eliminate risk and uncertainty from his life. For this man going and selling and giving would have freed him to be a member of the Kingdom. Every person has to give up some selfish thing to enter the kingdom. It may - or may not - be wealth (Jesus didn't give the same instructions to Nicodemus or Zaccheus). When money becomes an "end" rather than "means" then such materialism is deadly and destructive. Affluence creates a concern for secondary values. It destroys one's teachability. It enslaves. Riches are "deceitful", creating illusions that are unreal, and emotional deprivations that are often worse than material poverty ...



By the way, did you check my previous reply to you in page number 4 i think?
I didn't get your reply yet

St. Thomas Aquinas, a great theologian and Doctor of the Church, writes in the Suma Theologica that there are five different ways to prove the existence of God: motion, efficient cause, possibility and necessity, gradation, and governance.<o:p> </o:p>

The Argument of Motion<o:p> </o:p>
Our world is in constant motion. Everything around us is constantly moving and changing. Even things that appear to be motionless are in fact in motion. Through science and technology we know that the earth revolves around the sun while at the same time revolving on its axis. The sun also revolves on its axis, and our entire solar system revolves within our galaxy, which revolves on its axis, and so on. According to St. Thomas, everything that is in motion was put in motion by something else. To make things simple imagine a ball on the ground. The ball has the potential to move but it cannot move on its own. Something or someone must put it in motion. If we kick the ball, the ball no longer has the potential for motion but is now in motion. The same applies to everything else – something or someone must first put it in motion. We can continue into infinity with examples of something putting something else in motion, but there must be a first cause of all the motion. This first cause of motion (or first mover) could not have been put in motion by anything else. This first mover we call God.<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The Argument of Efficient Cause<o:p> </o:p>
There exists an order to every efficient cause. This is also known as cause and effect. This argument is very similar to the argument of motion discussed above. What is being argued is this: to have an effect there must be something that causes it.A good example of cause and effect is the riddle of the chicken and the egg. Which came first? One has to be the cause of the other. If the chicken came first, then the egg is the effect and if the chicken is the effect, then the egg is the cause. Even if we could figure this out, we’re still left with the question: what is the first cause of either one of these? It is not possible for something to be the efficient cause of itself. This is the same as saying that a baby created itself. For this to be true, the baby would have to exist even before it existed and this is impossible. If there is no cause, there cannot be any effect. There has to be a cause that is efficient within itself, something that needs nothing to exist and which is the cause of everything else. This first cause we call God.<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The Argument of Possibility and Necessity<o:p> </o:p>
There are some things that are possible and some things that are not possible. It’s possible for a bird to fly provided that it can get sufficient lift by use of its wings and air pressure. If there is no air pressure or if its feathers are clipped, it becomes impossible for a bird to fly. This is a very simple example of possibility and necessity – there are things that are necessary in order for something to be possible. A tree can bear fruit if the necessary conditions are present, but if the tree never existed then it is impossible for it to give fruit. In order for the fruit to exist, the tree has to exist, and something had to have existed before the tree, maybe a seed, and something before that, and so on.<o:p> </o:p>
Everything that exists is possible only because something existed prior to it. It’s impossible to get something from nothing so we would be correct in saying that something has to have always existed. If at one time nothing existed, it would have been impossible for anything to begin to exist. If this were true then nothing would exist now. There has to have been something existing that did not need anything to exist but instead causes the existence of everything else. This self-efficient existence we call God.<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
The Argument of Gradation<o:p> </o:p>
Gradation is the act or process of classification. In school our work and effort is subject to gradation, usually on a scale of “A” to “F”. A Grade of “A” is the best; “B” is less than “A” but better than “C” and so on. This gradation is true of everything; some things are more or less good, some things are more true than others, etc. But for gradation to be true, there must be something to grade against. For example, we can only say that something is cold or colder only if we compare it to the coldest; or that a grade of “B” is better than “C” but only if we have “A” to compare it to. With this same way of thinking, we can say along with St. Thomas that there is something that is truest, something that is noblest, something that is best, and something that is the uttermost being. This uttermost being is the cause of every other being, goodness, and perfection. This uttermost being we call God.<o:p> </o:p>

<o:p> </o:p>
The Argument of Governance<o:p> </o:p>
In nature, everything has a tendency toward its end. In other words, everything has its moment in time when it finishes – everything has its purpose, outcome or result. The end of male and female beings is procreation. The end of feeling hungry is so the body can receive nourishment. All things, whether they have intelligence or not, have a purpose or end. We can see in nature that even those things that lack intelligence achieve their end or purpose and this does not just happen by chance. Some being with knowledge and intelligence must guide it to its end just as a driver guides his car. This being we call God.<o:p> </o:p>
Based on the arguments that St. Thomas presents us, God does exist. God is the uttermost being who possesses all understanding, knowledge, truth, and justice. He is the cause of everything, sets it all in motion, and guides it to its final end. Even those who deny the existence of God must first recognize his existence before they can deny him. We cannot deny what we don’t know. If we don’t know that something exists, how can we deny it? This is the same as saying that North and South American did not exist until the explorer Columbus reached its shores. Just as no one can make such a ridiculous statement, neither can anyone say that God does not exist simply because they cannot physically see him or understand him.<o:p> </o:p>
Science has brought new insight into many unanswered questions that man has asked since the dawn of civilization. Great discoveries have been made and things once thought of as impossible have now become commonplace within our modern world. The advances of science and technology for some people, however, have begun to take the place of God to the point where many feel that God is no longer necessary or that he never really existed at all. Although many things that at one time were unexplainable can now be explained through the knowledge we’ve gained as a civilization, there are still many unanswered questions as to our beginning and our ultimate end. To these questions, science may never have an answer because they belong only to God.

[Tanios]

Another proof of the existence of God (;-)):

A very large mathematical convention was held in orte45xik. The conventioneers (an infinite number) filled the Calflo Hotel wich has an infinite number of rooms.

In the evening a long bus arrived with an other infinity of conventioneers.

The guys got together and worked out a plan.

In the CalFlo Hotel, they moved all guests to twice their room number -- room 101 moved to 202, room 1234 moved to room 2468, etc. Then all the odd number rooms were empty, and there were an infinite number of odd rooms. So the guests from the other hotel moved into them.

The second day a long bus arrived with an other infinity of conventioneers....

[coralie]

Originally Posted by Orangina

it is the same argument i used before and i'll use till someone give the answer that prove that i am wrong to ask those questions!!

till now , no one convinced me!

Dear JD i am a believer...

i used to ask myself some questions about this god i do believe in!

At the end of the day i found that i am wasting my time trying to prove that god exists! So i stopped asking myself those questions and i now i continue my life, i go to church every sunday, coz i feel good, i feel reliefed!

Guys life is short, stop wasting your time asking questions that have no answers! go, live

dont we all ask questions ??? over and over again ??? its useless the mystery is much more bigger then our small minds ! thats what we should understand and stop the sterile battle to infiltrate the mystery of God !

[tamerlane]

Nobody will ever prove anything about the existence of God. God is a mystic feeling common to all humans. we cannot prove it because it will become then something like many things human had already proved. In the utmost you can be a pantheistic, believing that Nature and God are the same thing but named differently. May God help you.

[El]

I don't know why many of you consider God as a creature instead of being the creator.I mean we should widen our vision toward God.
Science has managed to explain from the Big Bang till now.But the first fraction of seconds are still a mystery.
The universe is made and ruled by 4 forces(gravitational, electromagnetic,nucleaire forte, nucleaire faible).
So when we will be able to understant the relation of those forces we might know what God is.
Could God be the relation and the combination of those Forces!

[Stella]

Originally Posted by Ogeorge

The universe is made and ruled by 4 forces(gravitational, electromagnetic,nucleaire forte, nucleaire faible).
So when we will be able to understant the relation of those forces we might know what God is.
Could God be the relation and the combination of those Forces!

Quite interesting. But even if we fully understand the mechanism of these forces, that wouldnt give a final explanation for God. God is much more and complex than the combination of those forces. Yet the most simple at the other hand.

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there. "

We can call God the higher energy or the universal energy, whatever, God is everywhere and in everything, you need only a tiny grain of sand to realize it.

[CPL]

I don't want to try and prove any idea, but I must assure you all that the methodology used is not correct.

You can't use science to prove the beyond scientific. God is by definition the concept that science can't define. That is why God changes as man changes.

Assess how far our today science can reach, what it can't understand would be nowadays God. And this is the way that happened ever since man was conscious and is going to keep on happening. God will always stay beyond understanding, thousands of years ago they thought that thunder was a divine phenomenon, now science proves that it's not, God is shrinking.

So don't try to prove God scientifically, for tomorrow's science will prove what you proved to be wrong, and God will change all over again.

Another idea, let's call that whoever started the Big Bang as God, how could you prove that God is a conscious being, and simply not a substance or some unintelligible concept?

Life could have been simply the process of evolution of this universe (I stress on the idea of this universe, because there's a possibility of having a multitude of universes "multiverse" giving the possibility of having many big bangs at different locations in the vast void, if the same exact conditions happened, then you'd have a mirror universe just as our own, and also if life by itself and even our thoughts, including what im writing now and everything every **** thing, are governed by physical equations, then exact replicates with exact histories of us and everything we know and see would happen in different universes).

Anyway, there is an infinity of possibilities, don't just narrow the ideas to one chain of reactions.

Personally, I don't know if God exists, and if he/she/it does what would be its concept and level of intelligence. But I do know that, such understanding is not within my grasp, at least now in 2006. And simply, I do not bother myself in searching for that truth, it will eventually come by itself.

[Arze]

Over Three Hundred Proofs of God’s Existence

TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT
(1) If reason exists then God exists.
(2) Reason exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
(1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
(2) I say the universe must have a cause.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) I define God to be X.
(2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) I can conceive of a perfect God.
(2) One of the qualities of perfection is existence.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

MODAL ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
(1) God is either necessary or unnecessary.
(2) God is not unnecessary, therefore God must be necessary.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Check out the world/universe/giraffe. Isn't it complex?
(2) Only God could have made them so complex.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BEAUTY, aka TELEOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Isn't that baby/sunset/flower/tree beautiful?
(2) Only God could have made them so beautiful.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM MIRACLES
(1) My aunt had cancer.
(2) The doctors gave her all these horrible treatments.
(3) My aunt prayed to God and now she doesn't have cancer.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

MORAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) Person X, a well-known Atheist, was morally inferior to the rest of us.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

MORAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) In my younger days I was a cursing, drinking, smoking, gambling, child-molesting, thieving, murdering, bed-wetting *******.
(2) That all changed once I became religious.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM CREATION
(1) If evolution is false, then creationism is true, and therefore God exists.
(2) Evolution can't be true, since I lack the mental capacity to understand it; moreover, to accept its truth would cause me to be uncomfortable.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM FEAR
(1) If there is no God then we're all going to die.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM THE BIBLE
(1) [arbitrary passage from OT]
(2) [arbitrary passage from NT]
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INTELLIGENCE
(1) Look, there's really no point in me trying to explain the whole thing to you stupid Atheists — it's too complicated for you to understand. God exists whether you like it or not.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM UNINTELLIGENCE
(1) Okay, I don't pretend to be as intelligent as you guys — you're obviously very well read. But I read the Bible, and nothing you say can convince me that God does not exist. I feel him in my heart, and you can feel him too, if you'll just ask him into your life. "For God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son into the world, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish from the earth." John 3:16.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BELIEF
(1) If God exists, then I should believe in Him.
(2) I believe in God.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM INTIMIDATION
(1) See this bonfire?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

PARENTAL ARGUMENT
(1) My mommy and daddy told me that God exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM NUMBERS
(1) Millions and millions of people believe in God.
(2) They can't all be wrong, can they?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ABSURDITY
(1) Maranathra!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ECONOMY
(1) God exists, you bastards!
(2) Therefore, God exists.

BOATWRIGHT'S ARGUMENT
(1) Ha ha ha.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

DORE'S ARGUMENT
(1) I forgot to take my meds.
(2) Therefore, I AM CHRIST!!
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM GUITAR MASTERY
(1) Eric Clapton is God.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (I)
(1) The human spirit exists.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

OPRAH'S ARGUMENT (II)
(1) Check out this video segment.
(2) Now how can anyone watch that and NOT believe in God?
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM HISTORY
(1) The Bible is true.
(2) Therefore, the Bible is historical fact.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM RESURRECTION
(1) Proof of God's existence will be available when you rise bodily from your grave.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM BIOGENESIS
(1) Where did Adam come from, dummy?
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM STEADFAST FAITH
(1) A lot of really cool people believed in God their entire lives.
(2) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM LONELINESS
(1) Christians say that Jesus is their best friend.
(2) I'm lonely, and I want a best friend.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

ARGUMENT FROM ARGUMENTATION
(1) God exists.
(2) [Atheist's counterargument]
(3) Yes he does.
(4) [Atheist's counterargument]
(5) Yes he does!
(6) [Atheist's counterargument]
(7) YES HE DOES!!!
(8) [Atheist gives up and goes home.]
(9) Therefore, God exists.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm