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  (#11 (permalink)) Old
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mey
I mean I believe that God exists, but thats my belief and I cannot CONCRETELY prove it to anyone
This is the reason why the word ''faith'' exists. Our knowledge will always be lacking, and that lack of knowledge will be bridged by faith. You cannot absolutely convince anyone of the existence of God without faith, otherwise, ''faith'' wouldn't be needed!

But my point is, seeing all the scientific data at hand, it takes much much more blind faith to believe there is NO God, than to believe there is one. Science heavily leans towards God.
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

But the word Convince needs some sort of scientific proof. Faith is not logic, or touchable or whatever (you get my point)

My point was doctor, we cannot prove the existence of God. Thats why I stay away from all those theories and so on, believing in God as you said is a matter of faith, something spiritual and I dont think we can use logic, or science or whatever (UNTIL NOW) to prove his/her existence.
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

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Originally Posted by drmaalouf
I never said otherwise. Science is changing. But I have to take a stand and not simply wait for some probably coming theories. Like in medicine, you have to work with the data you have available, and when it changes, adapt to the changes. Note that I have said "Until it has been disproved, it is only wise to build on the current data we have"

We cannot go on building our beliefs on ''conspiracy'' theories or ''to come'' proofs. We work with what we have. And up until the time of posting of this message, current theories says something cannot come out of nothing. :)
Ok, our current knowledge implicates this, and you got it right, we shall adapt continously to the changes, and never say that this or that is proven for sure. We cant think within other then our current space-time frame, and its a constraining factor. Just as our earthly physics must have contain many "errors" ie. and bc of this, it cant be generalized to the whole universe. Thats why I said we are operating with man-made means, trying to measure the universe, as if we could look upon it as sth independent from us. But we cant. Well not yet.
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

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Originally Posted by Mey
But the word Convince needs some sort of scientific proof. Faith is not logic, or touchable or whatever (you get my point)
I do get your point, and you are right. Faith is faith. It's not science, it's not math. But let's look at it in another way. A formula, although I know things aint that simple, but nevertheless.

A/ Belief there is a God = proofs that leans toward God + faith that will fill the gaps in knowledge of those proofs.

B/ Belief there is no God = proofs that leans away from God + faith that fill the gaps in knowledge of those proofs.

The scientific proofs that lean towards God are bigger than those that disproves God (eg, bigbang). Thus, to believe in God, requires LESS faith than to believe there is no God!!

I hope you can see my point. Again, faith will always be necessary. But,in my opinion, its easier to believe in God than not to, seeing all the data at hand :)
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmaalouf
Now, something CANNOT come out of nothing. .

again u re missing the point
the whole concept of Big Bang is the fact that matter and anti matter was created from nothing
this is the singularity point where all the physics of law are not verified
again i ll repeat what i posted in the other thread
the whole idea is an inverted evolution in time ( pejorativment inversons l axe de temps ) of the procedure of the black holes formation
that s it dude
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

Foem About.com:
http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm

(I also added the orginal Arabic verses myself)





Creation of the Universe
Six "Days" or Long Periods of Time

The descriptions of creation in the Qur'an are not intended as dry historical accounts, but rather to engage the reader in contemplating the lessons to be learned from it. The act of creation, therefore, is frequently spoken of as a way of drawing the reader into thinking about the order in all things, and the All-Knowing Creator Who is behind it all. For example: "Verily in the heavens and the earth are signs for those who believe. And in the creation of yourselves, and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are signs for those of assured faith. And in the alternation of night and day, and that fact that Allah sends down sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds, are signs for those who are wise" (45:3-5).





Big Bang?

<script>zSB(3,3);if(!z336){var zIsb=gEI("adsb");if(zIsb){zIsb.style.display="inli ne";zIsb.style.height="0px";zIsb.style.width="0px" ;}var zIss=gEI("adss");if(zIss){zIss.style.display="inli ne";zIss.style.height="0px";zIss.style.width="0px" ;}}</script>أولم ير الذين كفروا أن السماوات والأرض كانتا رتقا ففتقناهما.." a (الأنبياء:30)

When describing the creation of the "heavens and the earth," the Qur'an does not discount the theory of a "Big Bang" explosion at the start of it all. In fact, the Qur'an says that "the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit, before We clove them asunder" (21:30). Following this big explosion, Allah "turned to the sky, and it had been (as) smoke. He said to it and to the earth: 'Come together, willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We come (together) in willing obedience'" (41:11). Thus the elements and what was to become the planets and stars began to cool, come together, and form into shape, following the natural laws that Allah established in the universe.
The Qur'an further states that Allah created the sun, the moon, and the planets, each with their own individual courses or orbits. "It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon; all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course" (21:33).




Expansion of Universe



The Qur'an also does not rule out the idea that the universe is continuing to expand. "The heavens, We have built them with power. And verily, We are expanding it" (51:47). There has been some historical debate among Muslim scholars about the precise meaning of this verse, since knowledge of the universe's expansion was only recently discovered.





Six Days?

The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.
The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.
After completing the Creation, the Qur'an describes that Allah "settled Himself upon the Throne" (57:4) to oversee His work. A distinct point is made to counter the Biblical idea of a day of rest: "We created the heavens and the earth adn all that is between them in six days, nor did any sense of weariness touch Us" (50:38).
Allah is never "done" with His work, because the process of creation is ongoing. Each new child who is born, every seed that sprouts into a sapling, every new species that appears on earth, is part of the ongoing process of Allah's creation. "He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then established Himself on the Throne. He knows what enters within the heart of the earth, and what comes forth out of it, what comes down from heaven, and what mounts up to it. And He is with you wherever you may be. And Allah sees well all that you do" (57:4).
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFPM
again u re missing the point
the whole concept of Big Bang is the fact that matter and anti matter was created from nothing
this is the singularity point where all the physics of law are not verified
again i ll repeat what i posted in the other thread
the whole idea is an inverted evolution in time ( pejorativment inversons l axe de temps ) of the procedure of the black holes formation
that s it dude
As a firm believer of the BigBang Theory, i can not deny what dr M mentioned about "something CANNOT come out of nothing".

there is the necessity for a beginning...

Even BigBang...

All scientists failed to prove that things can start from nothing...

Even the mighty Eisntein when he talked about the "fudge factor" , he later came out to testify that this was the greatest blunder of his scientific career!

Now you can argue whether this mighty power is a personal God... Which I dont think so...
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFPM
the whole concept of Big Bang is the fact that matter and anti matter was created from nothing
this is the singularity point where all the physics of law are not verified
(I posted this in another thread )Correct me if am wrong, but isn't singularity a huge amount of energy in a point so to speak? I mean, matter can come out of energy (the singularity) because this is the whole theory of bigbang, but matter cannot come out of absolutely nothing (void). Matter cannot self-create itself from absolutely nothing (zero energy). If the universe created itself from nothing (which is a self refuting phrase since for matter to create itself, it would have to ..exist first!), then God is no longer necessary
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 23rd March 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmaalouf
This thread was started as a response to Orangina, who asked how the bigbang proves God.

I am gonna simplify it to the maximum, because getting into the specifics requires high knowledge of physics.
Man, you amaze me !!
You take some theories for granted and you just reject other theories. You pick the theories you like and defend them and you attack other theories that don't suit the way you think !

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmaalouf
The majority of the scientific community backs the BigBang theory as an explanation of the start of our universe. This has been more and more proved by studied the background temperature of the universe (thermodynamics law, cooling of the universe,...), the continual expansion of the universe, the high tech telescopes etc.. etc...
Wrong!

The big bang theory is very questionable nowadays. Scientists have discovered some galaxies that are much older than the big bang ! quite strange.. !

Cheers.
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Default Re: How the BigBang proves the existence of God. - 24th March 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by drmaalouf
Physics has proved that our universe has a start, and is NOT eternal: it is changing.
In classic mechanics (before Einstein and especially before de Sitter):
The principal argument for a beginning of time was:

It's not a question of physics, it's aquestion of Logic : if time did not have a begining then the length of time before today is infinite this simply means that it's impossible to arrive to today by definition!

In relative mechanics:
the answer is mostly a question of topology of the universe, of value of the cosmologic function (either continued expansion after one single big ban , or expension -recession-big bang-expansion-recession-big bang...). But in fact in the modern model of the universe, especialy in the big bang theory, time is only one composite of the dimension of the universe. Time and space are relatives, the only absolute value is the speed of light and in some place of the space time simply does not exist ( the singularities) and in some places in time space does not even exist (the Big Bang, repeated or not), ... the only constant is the speed of light... even when there is no more time or no more space!

and don't try to understand it, or in fact don't try to feel it's simply impossible. But it can be "prooved" and it's explainable by the fact that both space and time are curved and not straight ( courbure de l'espace temps), and mathematically it is prooved that this MODEL CAN work and explains a lot. It does not explain quantic physic (we don't have a "grand unification theory" betwen relative physics and quantic Physics) although it seems that the "supercord theory" (théorie des cordes) are a promising theory towards modelising both of them. And in that case the universe would not have 4 dimension but most probably 11! All of them relatives and curve !!!

7adan 3endo "panadol"? ;-)
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