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Default Homosexuality and the Christian church - 12th April 2007

I found this article in a Melbourne newspaper, I thought it was interesting.

Take a read, post your opinions.

http://blogs.theage.com.au/ilovefoot...rsus_the.html#

Gay versus the poor

David Cook - The Age

I'm constantly perplexed by the amount of energy that my fellow Christians invest into the debate over homosexuality and the church.

It feels to me like a whole lot of people have got their understanding of what's important in their faith completely out of kilter.

A while back at a music festival I was sitting with a bunch of Christian friends, and the subject of homosexuality came up. I mentioned that I thought there were more important things to worry about, and anyway there's only a handful of verses in the whole Bible - New and Old Testaments - that directly deal with the issue of homosexuality, and that even some of these are a matter of scholarly and interpretive debate.

The vehement response was a real example of how the subject touches a raw nerve with a lot of Christians, and how much emotional energy they're willing to put into arguing and proving their case. But sadly I think it's a misguided result of a church culture that has an unbalanced emphasis on personal morality issues.

Consider this: there are only a handful of verses in the Bible that deal with homosexuality (a sample of some has been collated here). Yet when it comes to direct commands for the follower of God to attend to the needs of the poor and stand up for the rights of the oppressed, the Bible is overloaded. For a comparison, click here and here.

If you cut out all the verses in the Bible that speak of the obligation to the poor, you'd basically not have a Bible left. Yet many conservative Christians somehow boil their faith down to personal morality issues. In an interview with buzzflash.com, Sojourners chief Jim Wallis points out that poverty is a big moral issue too, and one that the Bible gives great importance to.

"The right is very comfortable with the language of faith and values and God and faith. In fact, they think they own it sometimes, or almost own religion or own God.

"And then they narrow everything to one or two hot-button social issues, as if abortion and gay marriage are the only two moral values questions. And those are important issues and they need a deeper, wider conversation - kind of a moral discussion on all sides. That's fine.

"But did anybody really suggest or imagine these are the only two moral values issues? I'm an Evangelical Christian and I find 3,000 verses in the Bible on the poor, so fighting poverty is a moral value too . . ." (For the full interview click here)

The Bible also has plenty of content warning against many things that are conspicously absent from the passionate (and usually sincere) rantings of most Christians.

For instance, there are many stories that warn against the evil of absentee landlords but I don't hear too many Christians getting worked up about this issue (probably because many in the Bible belt are themselves absentee landlords).

The Good Book also clearly speaks against lending money for repayment with interest (now an accepted norm of our society), the dangers of wealth and material accumulation, and on it goes.

Yet despite the weight of such pressing issues that the Bible appears to focus on, the modern Christian church spends much of its time and energy on this issue of homosexuality, and particularly, it seems to me, the average pew-sitter doesn't spend a proportional amount of energy getting passionately involved with responding to the Biblical directives about poverty.

It really troubles me, and I've spent a lot of time trying to figure out why.

And to be perfectly blunt, I think it's because the gay issue is a soft target for many Christians that requires little real commitment or sacrifice.

It's much easier to huff and puff in church and public meetings and get a feel-good sensation from having "taken a stand" for your faith than actually having to make difficult choices about your own lifestyle.

Responding to the multiplicity of verses in the Bible about obligations to the poor, oppressed and suffering is difficult, complex and an ongoing challenge. It requires constant struggle over issues of money, lifestyle, political ideology and materialist culture - and then actually doing something about it.

It's seems to me to be much easier to spout invective about the evils of homosexuality (and feel self-righteous because you're "not like that") and maintain your personal status quo than to question whether you really need the new Lexus, if it's ethical to own shares in a company that profits from the arms trade, or why you don't know anybody who is poor besides the World Vision kid in the picture on your fridge.

The morals of homosexuality may or may not be arguable from a Biblical perspective, but that's not my issue and I don't really care to debate it (those who are interested in a background to both sides of the argument should click here). But really, if you have a view that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, that's up to you and you can argue that with someone else.

My gripe is that the whole debate seems to serve as a smokescreen for inaction on issues that the Bible gives more priority to.

If Christians could inject as much passion and energy into the issues that the Bible actually focuses on, then collectively we might make a huge difference to the state of the world that demonstrates the vitality that we claim our faith has, rather than looking like a bunch of finger-waggers who stand at a safe distance throwing stones at others or denying communion to one section of the community as a means to "protecting" our piece of turf.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?
So, am I right? Or am I wrong? Remember, my argument isn't about "Biblical truth". It's about the unbalanced emphasis I feel some Christians put on a few verses compared to the weight of verses about the poor and oppressed.

Last edited by lebanesecanadian; 20th May 2007 at 09:07 AM.. Reason: title change into a more fitting one when threads were merged. :)
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Default 12th April 2007

Christianity these days is nothing close to what it use to be.

Jesus teaches love and all people do is hate. It like everything else has been infected with humanity's ability to twist and desecrate everything pure.

But I completely agree with the author.
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Default 14th April 2007

i did not read the whole thing, but i can imagine what it says...

about homo ppl, i dont view them as demons, but rather as mentally challenged... they are the result of abnormal education (circumstances) or abnormal genes... and as any other disabled person, homo should be treated and healed...

so u cannot give special civil rights to a group of mentally ill people, that's all...

now, would u like to see ur kid growing gay?? i certainly wouldnt, but i'll try to help him and cure him... but also i will try to raise him correctly, not too soft, not too hard... hard is better than soft though...
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Default 15th April 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by syrian View Post
i did not read the whole thing, but i can imagine what it says...

about homo ppl, i dont view them as demons, but rather as mentally challenged... they are the result of abnormal education (circumstances) or abnormal genes... and as any other disabled person, homo should be treated and healed...

so u cannot give special civil rights to a group of mentally ill people, that's all...

now, would u like to see ur kid growing gay?? i certainly wouldnt, but i'll try to help him and cure him... but also i will try to raise him correctly, not too soft, not too hard... hard is better than soft though...
I hope you're not serious!

mentally challenged?? why? do you actually determine people's mental capacities according to their sexual tendancies?...
Alexander the Great was bisexuel...Socrates and Plato were homosexuals ( we all know how much they liked young men )...but according to your analysis, they're mentally challenged!

abnormal?? being different from the majority doesn't make them abnormal!

Quote:
now, would u like to see ur kid growing gay?
No... because usually humans are egoists! they won't be thinking about their child but rather about their own satisfaction ( seing their son/ daughter married....grandchildren...you know the whole "normal" package!)...that's why usually parents are disapointed..because they see the dreams they've been building ever since their kid was born are vanishing!
i think if one day my kid tells me he/she is homosexuel...i would probably support their choice ( i'll sure hide the disapointment i'd be feeling at first), accept whatever makes them happy! i sure wouldn't even try make them feel "abnormal" by trying to "cure" them!
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Default 15th April 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by syrian View Post

now, would u like to see ur kid growing gay?? i certainly wouldnt, but i'll try to help him and cure him... but also i will try to raise him correctly, not too soft, not too hard... hard is better than soft though...
Syrian
If you have the cure you could patent it and make millions out it. MIllions of dissatisfied parents and people who have been subjected to all sorts of prejudices through the ages would be very thankful to you. Not to mention saving others from eternal damnation. Jee man you could be the next Messiah. However if you took a couple more minutes to read the article you will see that you are way off topic.
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Default 15th April 2007

Quote:
Originally Posted by syrian View Post
so u cannot give special civil rights to a group of mentally ill people, that's all...
Regardless of the content of your post, the bigotry in it and the fact that psychiatrists have de-classified homosexuality as a mental illness since a long time, mentally ill people do have rights. So even by your bigotted logic, they should get their rights.




<CENTER><CENTER>
Declaration on the Rights of Mentally Retarded Persons <CENTER>Declaration on the Rights of Mentally Retarded Persons
Declaration on the Rights of Mentally Retarded Persons




</CENTER><CENTER>Proclaimed by General Assembly resolution 2856 (XXVI) of 20 December 1971

</CENTER>

The General Assembly,
Mindful of the pledge of the States Members of the United Nations under the Charter to take joint and separate action in co-operation with the Organization to promote higher standards of living, full employment and conditions of economic and social progress and development,
Reaffirming faith in human rights and fundamental freedoms and in the principles of peace, of the dignity and worth of the human person and of social justice proclaimed in the Charter,
Recalling the principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenants on Human Rights, the Declaration of the Rights of the Child and the standards already set for social progress in the constitutions, conventions, recommendations and resolutions of the International Labour Organisation, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization, the World Health Organization, the United Nations Children's Fund and other organizations concerned,
Emphasizing that the Declaration on Social Progress and Development has proclaimed the necessity of protecting the rights and assuring the welfare and rehabilitation of the physically and mentally disadvantaged,
Bearing in mind the necessity of assisting mentally retarded persons to develop their abilities in various fields of activities and of promoting their integration as far as possible in normal life,
Aware that certain countries, at their present stage of development, can devote only limited efforts to this end,
Proclaims this Declaration on the Rights of Mentally Retarded Persons and calls for national and international action to en sure that it will be used as a common basis and frame of reference for the protection of these rights:
1. The mentally retarded person has, to the maximum degree of feasibility, the same rights as other human beings.
2. The mentally retarded person has a right to proper medical care and physical therapy and to such education, training, rehabilitation and guidance as will enable him to develop his ability and maximum potential.
3. The mentally retarded person has a right to economic security and to a decent standard of living. He has a right to perform productive work or to engage in any other meaningful occupation to the fullest possible extent of his capabilities.
4. Whenever possible, the mentally retarded person should live with his own family or with foster parents and participate in different forms of community life. The family with which he lives should receive assistance. If care in an institution becomes necessary, it should be provided in surroundings and other circumstances as close as possible to those of normal life.
5. The mentally retarded person has a right to a qualified guardian when this is required to protect his personal well-being and interests.
6. The mentally retarded person has a right to protection from exploitation, abuse and degrading treatment. If prosecuted for any offence, he shall have a right to due process of law with full recognition being given to his degree of mental responsibility. 7. Whenever mentally retarded persons are unable, because of the severity of their handicap, to exercise all their rights in a meaningful way or it should become necessary to restrict or deny some or all of these rights, the procedure used for that restriction or denial of rights must contain proper legal safeguards against every form of abuse. This procedure must be based on an evaluation of the social capability of the mentally retarded person by qualified experts and must be subject to periodic review and to the right of appeal to higher authorities.


</CENTER>


</CENTER>
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Default 17th April 2007

Syrian,

No obviously you didn't read it.

The point of the article was that even if homosexuality is a sin (which I don't consider it to be), Christian churches place more emphasis on that which is maybe mentioned once or twice in the Bible than something more important such as poverty which is mentioned throughout the book.

According to Evangelicals and Catholics who preach against homosexuality, "morality" in their eyes is more about being heterosexual and having a family, than giving to the poor and doing your best to help your fellow human being - which happens to be the essential core message of Christianity. Not just homosexuality, but even issues such as abortion, which is dear to the Catholic Church.

A religion wasn't made to discuss homosexuality or abortion, so why is it such an issue?

That's the point being made, this isn't a thread for homophobes to bash homosexuals.
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Default 17th April 2007

I am a Christian and all my life I learned to respect everyone, including homosexuals obviously. They born gays, they don't make any choice. They don't wake up and say "from now on I'll be a gay!". In their teenage years they start to feel attraction for boys, not for girls, and that must be confusing for many. So I am against prison or punish laws for them.

By other side I wouldn't support marriage for gays. Hypothetically, if every single person were homosexual, the human race would have a very difficult time continuing to exist. Of course there will always be straight people but they are having so few babies... I think that's why Evangelicals and Christians are against homosexuality.
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Default 21st April 2007

آسف لم أقرأ المقال لكن احببت ان اعلق على موضوع المثلية الجنسية
فلقد كنت قد قرأت منذ فترة عن حادثة جرت في زمن الامام علي بن ابي طالب عليه السلام و هي ان رجلا اتى مجلسه و اخبره انه يحب الرجال و قد مارس الجنس مع بعضهم فأوتي كما تؤتى النساء ... و هو يعلم انه ارتكب معصية و امرا حراما و لانه لا يستطيع ان يكبت شعوره و هو مؤمن بالله فطلب من الامام ان يعاقبه و سأله عن ما هية العقوبة فخيره الامام بين ثلاث (نسيتها صراحة ) فما كان من الرجل الا ان اختار اقساها و طلب انزال العقوبة به فاشفق عليه الامام و عفا عنه و قال له لكن لا تعد اليها

لا اعلم مدى صحة هذه الرواية و كنت اتمنى لو انني حفظتها لدي حتى انقل المصدر
بينما نرى في بعض الدول الاسلامية قتل هؤلاء الناس بالجملة دون معرفة ما يدفعهم الى ذلك او معرفة ما هي حقيقة الامر ..لقد اتى الدين و الاسلام لصالح الناس و حل و تفهم مشاكلهم الا ان الموروث من العادات و التقاليد يطغى على جوهر الدين بعض الاحيان
لا ادعو لان يمارس هؤلاء الناس ما يمارسونه لكن ادعو لتغيير اسلوب التعامل معهم فوحده تغيير اسلوب التعامل و تقبل الامر ممكن ان يؤدي الى تخفيف المشكلة و حتى امكانية حلها
فان المثلي هويته الجنسية تتكون زمن الطفولة و المراهقة و هذا يصبح من شخصيته
تخيل مثلا ان طفلا يملك الشجاعة للقول الى اهله انا احب ابناء جنسي سينبذونه بدل ان يحضنونه و يغيرون اسلوب تربيتهم لان شخصية الانسان تتكون في تلك المرحلة و حين يكنتمل عود الانسان لا يعد بالامكان تدارك ما يمكن تداركه
و اذا لم يقل لهم فسيكبت الامر و يتكون في شخصيته
المجتمع و العائلة يساهمان في تأجيج المثلية الجنسية عبر جعل الامر محرما التحدث عنه تماما كالجنس اي جعله تابو مع ان الدين غير ذلك اطلاقا
و يحضرني هنا تصرف احدى الجمعيات الكشفية التابعة لاحد الاحزاب الاسلامية اللبنانية حين اكتشفوا ان مجموعة من المراهقين يمارسون المثلية الجنسية ... بالتأكيد اخرجوهم من الجمعية لكن ارسلوهم الى طبيب نفسي و اخصائي اجتماعي و نفساني و حافظوا على هويتهم
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Default 21st April 2007

Well, one doesn't have to exclude the other.

I don't think Christianity is about sexuality only, so morals are definitely not about sex and sexual orientation only.

However, I feel very strongly about Gay marriage and adoption rights for gays. While poverty has been there forever, and while people seem to look the other way, and while this should be addressed, this does not mean that the fact that only a few verses are related to homosexuality should mean that this is a minor issue and that gay marriages and adoption should be overlooked.

It is my belief that if God had wanted for gays to be married, he wouldn't have said in the Bible: "He who made man from the beginning, made them male and female. And he said: For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder" (Matthew 19:4-6).

Same, if God wanted same sex couples to have children, the commandment wouldn't have been honor your father and your mother, it would have been honor your parents, not to mention the fact that they would have been able to biologically have children.

If Christians do not live their faith as it should be, this does not mean that the issue of gay marriage and adoption should be overlooked.

The article does not seem very logical to me. The writer wanted to put the focus on the issue of poverty and how people are failing in this regard, he was right. But linking it to behavior related to homosexuality is irrelevant. He could have made the link with his friends being sexually active (heterosexual) outside marriage which is not acceptable by the church also. It would have been more to the point.
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