The Holy Trinity

[Souss]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Signs of weakness .

What about "inability to articulate clear, unambiguous ideas"? would that be a sign of weakness?

[DaManInChrist]

Originally Posted by Souss

What about "inability to articulate clear, unambiguous ideas"? would that be a sign of weakness?

According to Dalzi, it is.

Maybe Dalzi can explain to us what's it like to be eternal.

On second thought, she's right. It is a sign of weakness. I'm only a weak human after all. Who am I to totally comprehend God's nature?

[Souss]

Originally Posted by DaManInChrist

According to Dalzi, it is.

Maybe Dalzi can explain to us what's it like to be eternal.

On second thought, she's right. It is a sign of weakness. I'm only a weak human after all. Who am I to totally comprehend God's nature?

So if you can't really comprehend God's nature, how can you come and give people lessons about it?

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by DaManInChrist

God incarnated out of love for you.

Do you mean that Jesus already set you free from the punishment of your sins?

Yet, Jesus (who is God) showed us that God is of a triune nature.

Yes, He does. This is why all sinners are condemned to hell unless they put their faith in Jesus Christ, who did something about sin on that cross.



So Islam is not a religion according to you?

What do you mean?

I didn't say that you don't know what "incarnation" means.

I said that you need to understand what "incarnation" is.

We don't need to keep smiling DeManIsChrist ... We're cool cool ...

The thread is drifting off topic. We are discussing the trinity. So let's stick to that ... We can answer all those under various topics :)...

Yet, i'd point out some things before i go (till tomorrow), no one is free from sin. Everyone is sinning and no one is saved "yet" :). Islam is a religion, and it is Christianity. As for incarnation, we know and understand what it means "according to you" :)...

Now back to the topic... You just said about Jesus "who is God"... What do you have to say about the biblical verses I presented?

[DaManInChrist]

Originally Posted by Souss

So if you can't really comprehend God's nature, how can you come and give people lessons about it?

Do you see me explaining the Trinity to them?

I'm only giving people the lessons that the Bible shows me concerning His nature.

[DaManInChrist]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Yet, i'd point out some things before i go (till tomorrow), no one is free from sin. Everyone is sinning and no one is saved "yet" :). Islam is a religion, and it is Christianity.

Jesus can save you from the punishment of sin and have you justified (through Him) in God's sight.

This is the Good News!

Yes, people continue to sin (even when they're saved) ... but God sanctifies His children and makes them holy to Him.

Christianity is not a religion.

As for incarnation, we know and understand what it means "according to you" :)...

So what made you talk about the idea of God eating, sleeping, and such?

Now back to the topic... You just said about Jesus "who is God"... What do you have to say about the biblical verses I presented?

I agree with the verses.

God is One.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

The Holy Trinity came from the Bible, not the Qur'an. Naturally, we should examine what the Bible has to say about it, not what the Qur'an thinks it says.

Originally Posted by Dalzi

The Qur’an came to rectify the distortion and the mistakes that crept into the religious writings and teachings of previous messages. The book is revealed through God’s voice. He is the speaker; not the prophet. Mohamad has no say at all.

Let's just clarify that you believe what you just said because Muhammad 600 years later said so.

This sure is beyond you because you do not know, and you sure are not God :D... How are you supposed to know what certain religious groups believed or maybe still believe?

Open the Bible or the Torah and check who Ezra is; read it for yourself, rather than simply trusting second hand info. You will find that he is a prophet; both Jews & Christians alike call Ezra a prophet in accordance to the scriptures.

So now let us examine the following Quranic verse:

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" 9:30

Alright, so does God make mistakes? Men make mistakes, although I do not believe this was an honest mistake, but rather Muhammad was anti-semitic, and it's no surprise that his followers have continued in his footsteps. And Dalzi, before you tell me there was a small group of so-called Jews who use to call Ezra the son of God; then maybe be you can also tell me why is Muhammad lumping Judaism, (which comes from the Torah) and all the Jews who believe in the Torah, into that one group? Therefore, the question has to be asked, was sincerity a part of the author's agenda? So, maybe I should adopt Muhammad’s interpretation skills and also say Muslims believe that flying planes into buildings and killing a bunch of innocent people is justified under Islam because Bin Laden and his group Al Qaeda said so. Or maybe I should say according to the Muslims, Al-Hakim was an incarnation of Allah because the Druze said so. Am I being sincere when I represent Islam that way? If you notice, at least I said Bin Laden and Druze, where I could have not identified them, which would have made it even more deceptive as was done in the Quranic verses.

God recognizes how you interpret biblical scriptures. The Qur’an doesn’t say you say God had a partner. It just says what you say; nothing more nothing less.

Caesar, would you mind explaining what you read in those Biblical verses you've presented?

Down to facts...

"And the Word was God", Jesus I suppose is the Word (according to you), so Jesus was God or a part of God. Great.

We believe Jesus is the son of God. For more understanding, go back to my original post.

"God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." Genesis 1:26. So man is created in the image of God. Implying that Jesus is a God or a part of God. Great.

I addressed this issue in my original post, go back and check. Jesus is the unique image of God, including his attributes.

Saying "there is no hierarcky among the three" is equating God to Jesus. Great.

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 32-33

If Jesus sits at the right hand of God, and not in God's seat, what do you reckon that means?

Now what does God (the One, or the Father - according to you) have to say about this...

Al-Ma'idah; 5:72-78

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَـهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

أَفَلاَ يَتُوبُونَ إِلَى اللّهِ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُونَهُ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

قُلْ أَتَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ مَا لاَ يَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ ضَرًّا وَلاَ نَفْعًا وَاللّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ غَيْرَ الْحَقِّ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ أَهْوَاء قَوْمٍ قَدْ ضَلُّواْ مِن قَبْلُ وَأَضَلُّواْ كَثِيراً وَضَلُّواْ عَن سَوَاء السَّبِيلِ

لُعِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَلَى لِسَانِ دَاوُودَ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ ذَلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُواْ يَعْتَدُونَ

Al-Ma'idah; 5:17

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَآلُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا وَلِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ

Al-Ma'idah; 5:116

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَـهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلاَ أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلاَّمُ الْغُيُوبِ

Al-Ma'idah; 5:110

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِئُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَـذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ

Gabriel...
Mariam; 5:16-21

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا
فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا
قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا
قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا
قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا
قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

Gabriel is God's messenger, he appeared to Mariam (not to anyone else) to deliver God's message to her.

Jesus, speaking as a new born child...
Mariam; 5:30-33

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا
وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا
وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْنِي جَبَّارًا شَقِيًّا
وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

God's comments...

ذَلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ
مَا كَانَ لِلَّهِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ مِن وَلَدٍ سُبْحَانَهُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ
وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ
فَاخْتَلَفَ الْأَحْزَابُ مِن بَيْنِهِمْ فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن مَّشْهَدِ يَوْمٍ عَظِيمٍ

Mariam; 19:88-95

وَقَالُوا اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَنُ وَلَدًا
لَقَدْ جِئْتُمْ شَيْئًا إِدًّا
تَكَادُ السَّمَاوَاتُ يَتَفَطَّرْنَ مِنْهُ وَتَنشَقُّ الْأَرْضُ وَتَخِرُّ الْجِبَالُ هَدًّا
أَن دَعَوْا لِلرَّحْمَنِ وَلَدًا
وَمَا يَنبَغِي لِلرَّحْمَنِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا
إِن كُلُّ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ إِلَّا آتِي الرَّحْمَنِ عَبْدًا
لَقَدْ أَحْصَاهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدًّا
وَكُلُّهُمْ آتِيهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ فَرْدًا

Yunus; 10:68

قَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ اللّهُ وَلَدًا سُبْحَانَهُ هُوَ الْغَنِيُّ لَهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ إِنْ عِندَكُم مِّن سُلْطَانٍ بِهَـذَا أَتقُولُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ

Al-Mu'minoon; 23:91

مَا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ مِن وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِذًا لَّذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلَا بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ

And finaly... Al-An'aam; 6:116

وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ

I say we call Jesus our Lord, not the Father, but the Son. Why do we call Jesus our Lord, because he was made in the image of God, unique to his attributes, therefore, he is perfect like God. But he is not literally the same entity; I go into more detail in my original post. The Holy Trinity is a biblical concept, and the Qur'an is a distortion of the Bible, therefore, it is full of errors, manipulation of scripture and pure deception. That’s why the verses you provided are clearly the distortion.

The Holy Spirit: Gabriel, a messenger, the angel.

You say Muhammad went into a cave where the angel Gabriel revealed the "truth" to him. As a Christian, I say he went into that cave with a Bible in his hand and came out with a distortion of it, which he called the Qur'an; that is very clear based on the inaccuracies and distortions of fact in the Quranic texts. The Bible stands on its own, but the Qur'an could not exist without the Bible.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Gaius Julius Caesar

The Holy Trinity came from the Bible, not the Qur'an. Naturally, we should examine what the Bible has to say about it, not what the Qur'an thinks it says.

I looked at both.

Let's just clarify that you believe what you just said because Muhammad 600 years later said so.

God said it.

Open the Bible or the Torah and check who Ezra is; read it for yourself, rather than simply trusting second hand info. You will find that he is a prophet; both Jews & Christians alike call Ezra a prophet in accordance to the scriptures.

You don't know what to say.

So now let us examine the following Quranic verse:

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; in this they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" 9:30

Alright, so does God make mistakes? Men make mistakes, although I do not believe this was an honest mistake, but rather Muhammad was anti-semitic

How can he be anti-semitic when he is semitic ...

And Dalzi, before you tell me there was a small group of so-called Jews who use to call Ezra the son of God; then maybe be you can also tell me why is Muhammad lumping Judaism, (which comes from the Torah) and all the Jews who believe in the Torah, into that one group?

This is one verse, the Qur'an is one whole, not one verse.

Aal-Imran; 3:7

هُوَ الَّذِيَ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاء الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاء تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ اللّهُ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ الألْبَابِ

There is no "lumping" of groups in the Qur'an.Refer to my previous posts on this thread.

So, maybe I should adopt Muhammad’s interpretation skills and also say Muslims believe that flying planes into buildings and killing a bunch of innocent people is justified under Islam because Bin Laden and his group Al Qaeda said so.

Ousama belongs to a certain group also mentioned in the Qur'an. He is not angelic.

Or maybe I should say according to the Muslims, Al-Hakim was an incarnation of Allah because the Druze said so.

Druze are not Muslims.

Am I being sincere when I represent Islam that way? If you notice, at least I said Bin Laden and Druze, where I could have not identified them, which would have made it even more deceptive as was done in the Quranic verses.

Read what I wrote, all of it.

We believe Jesus is the son of God. For more understanding, go back to my original post.

That's what I wanted to hear :)

I addressed this issue in my original post, go back and check. Jesus is the unique image of God, including his attributes.

That is also what I wanted to hear.

"This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 32-33

If Jesus sits at the right hand of God, and not in God's seat, what do you reckon that means?

You know what I think that means :)

I say we call Jesus our Lord, not the Father, but the Son. Why do we call Jesus our Lord, because he was made in the image of God, unique to his attributes, therefore, he is perfect like God.

Something I also wanted to hear.

But he is not literally the same entity; I go into more detail in my original post.

I read it.

The Holy Trinity is a biblical concept, and the Qur'an is a distortion of the Bible, therefore, it is full of errors, manipulation of scripture and pure deception. That’s why the verses you provided are clearly the distortion.

You know what I want to say here :)

You say Muhammad went into a cave where the angel Gabriel revealed the "truth" to him. As a Christian, I say he went into that cave with a Bible in his hand and came out with a distortion of it, which he called the Qur'an; that is very clear based on the inaccuracies and distortions of fact in the Quranic texts. The Bible stands on its own, but the Qur'an could not exist without the Bible.

I can say that I just heard what I wanted to hear. And you failed to interpret what you read in the biblical verses I provided.

I call it case closed .

Good luck.

[Claudia]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

How can he be anti-semitic when he is semitic ...

Please tell me if I'm wrong, problably I am: is that true that Mohamed told jews he was the Messiah and jews rejected his words. That's when he became an anti-jew. (please Muslims, don't take me wrong, I just want someone explains this to me. Thanks)

Welcome back, Caesar.

[gramsci]

Originally Posted by Claudia

Please tell me if I'm wrong, problably I am: is that true that Mohamed told jews he was the Messiah and jews rejected his words. That's when he became an anti-jew. (please Muslims, don't take me wrong, I just want someone explains this to me. Thanks)

Welcome back, Caesar.

1. how do u know that there is god ?
2. if that god really exist ? why did he privileged jews than others ( chinese m red indians , african ...) and never sent them any profet
3. assuming the the points 1 and 2 , are true, what do jews consider jesus , ' didnt they said that he is heretic ? if not and consider him a profet m why logically they didnt convert yet ? and how they can defend their religion ?