advanced search
Contact Us tayyar.org
 
The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org
 


Notices
Self Improvement Health, Fitness, Diet, Exercise, Religion, Meditation, Beauty, & Attire. In addition to seeking advice on how to deal with social, psychological, and physiological issues.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  (#1 (permalink)) Old
Community Staff
 
Osiris's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,139
Thanks: 72
Thanked 103 Times in 71 Posts
Last Online: 1 Day Ago
Join Date: Mon Feb 2005
View Osiris's Photo Album
Default Gospel of Judas - 10th April 2006

An early Christian manuscript, including the only known text of what is known as the Gospel of Judas, has surfaced after 1,700 years. The text gives new insights into the relationship of Jesus and the disciple who betrayed him, scholars reported today. In this version, Jesus asked Judas, as a close friend, to sell him out to the authorities, telling Judas he will "exceed" the other disciples by doing so.

Though some theologians have hypothesized this, scholars who have studied the new-found text said, this is the first time an ancient document defends the idea.

The discovery in the desert of Egypt of the leather-bound papyrus manuscript, and now its translation, was announced by the National Geographic Society at a news conference in Washington. The 26-page Judas text is said to be a copy in Coptic, made around A. D. 300, of the original Gospel of Judas, written in Greek the century before.

Terry Garcia, an executive vice president of the geographic society, said the manuscript, or codex, is considered by scholars and scientists to be the most significant ancient, nonbiblical text to be found in the past 60 years.

"The codex has been authenticated as a genuine work of ancient Christian apocryphal literature," Mr. Garcia said, citing extensive tests of radiocarbon dating, ink analysis and multispectral imaging and studies of the script and linguistic style. The ink, for example, was consistent with ink of that era, and there was no evidence of multiple rewriting.

"This is absolutely typical of ancient Coptic manuscripts," said Stephen Emmel, professor of Coptic studies at the University of Munster in Germany. "I am completely convinced."

The most revealing passages in the Judas manuscript begins, "The secret account of the revelation that Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot during a week, three days before he celebrated Passover."

The account goes on to relate that Jesus refers to the other disciples, telling Judas "you will exceed all of them. For you will sacrifice the man that clothes me." By that, scholars familiar with Gnostic thinking said, Jesus meant that by helping him get rid of his physical flesh, Judas will act to liberate the true spiritual self or divine being within Jesus.

Unlike the accounts in the New Testament Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the anonymous author of the Gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone among the 12 disciples understood the meaning of Jesus' teachings and acceded to his will. In the diversity of early Christian thought, a group known as Gnostics believed in a secret knowledge of how people could escape the prisons of their material bodies and return to the spiritual realm from which they came.

Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton who specializes in studies of the Gnostics, said in a statement, "These discoveries are exploding the myth of a monolithic religion, and demonstrating how diverse — and fascinating — the early Christian movement really was."

The Gospel of Judas is only one of many texts discovered in the last 65 years, including the gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene and Philip, believed to be written by Gnostics.

The Gnostics' beliefs were often viewed by bishops and early church leaders as unorthodox, and they were frequently denounced as heretics. The discoveries of Gnostic texts have shaken up Biblical scholarship by revealing the diversity of beliefs and practices among early followers of Jesus.

As the findings have trickled down to churches and universities, they have produced a new generation of Christians who now regard the Bible not as the literal word of God, but as a product of historical and political forces that determined which texts should be included in the canon, and which edited out.

For that reason, the discoveries have proved deeply troubling for many believers. The Gospel of Judas portrays Judas Iscariot not as a betrayer of Jesus, but as his most favored disciple and willing collaborator.

Scholars say that they have long been on the lookout for the Gospel of Judas because of a reference to what was probably an early version of it in a text called Against Heresies, written by Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, about the year 180.

Irenaeus was a hunter of heretics, and no friend of the Gnostics. He wrote, "They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas."

Karen L. King, a professor of the history of early Christianity at Harvard Divinity School, and an expert in Gnosticism who has not yet read the manuscript released today, said that the Gospel of Judas may well reflect the kinds of debates that arose in the second and third century among Christians.

"You can see how early Christians could say, if Jesus's death was all part of God's plan, then Judas's betrayal was part of God's plan," said Ms. King, the author of several books on Gnostic texts. "So what does that make Judas? Is he the betrayer, or the facilitator of salvation, the guy who makes the crucifixion possible?"

At least one scholar said the new manuscript does not contain anything dramatic that would change or undermine traditional understanding of the Bible. James M. Robinson, a retired professor of Coptic studies at Claremont Graduate University, was the general editor of the English edition of the Nag Hammadi library, a collection of Gnostic documents discovered in Egypt in 1945.

"Correctly understood, there's nothing undermining about the Gospel of Judas," Mr. Robinson said in a telephone interview. He said that the New Testament gospels of John and Mark both contain passages that suggest that Jesus not only picked Judas to betray him, but actually encouraged Judas to hand him over to those he knew would crucify him.

Mr. Robinson's book, "The Secrets of Judas: The Story of the Misunderstood Disciple and his Lost Gospel" (Harper San Francisco, April 2006), predicts the contents of the Gospel of Judas based on his knowledge of Gnostic and Coptic texts, even though he was not part of the team of researchers working on the document.

The Egyptian copy of the gospel was written on 13 sheets of papyrus, both front and back, and found in a multitude of brittle fragments.

Rudolphe Kasser, a Swiss scholar of Coptic studies, directed the team that reconstructed and translated the script. The effort, organized by the National Geographic, was supported by Maecenas Foundation for Ancient Art, in Basel, Switzerland, and the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, an American nonprofit organization for the application of technology in historical and scientific projects.

The entire 66-page codex also contains a text titled James (also known as First Apocalypse of James), a letter by Peter and a text of what scholars are provisionally calling Book of Allogenes.

Discovered in the 1970's in a cavern near El Minya, Egypt, the document circulated for years among antiquities dealers in Egypt, then Europe and finally in the United States. It moldered in a safe-deposit box at a bank in Hicksville, N. Y., for 16 years before being bought in 2000 by a Zurich dealer, Frieda Nussberger-Tchacos. The manuscript was given the name Codex Tchacos.

When attempts to resell the codex failed, Ms. Nussberger-Tchacos turned it over to the Maecenas Foundation for conservation and translation.

Mr. Robinson said that an Egyptian antiquities dealer offered to sell him the document in 1983 for $3 million, but that he could not raise the money. He criticized the scholars now associated with the project, some of whom are his former students, because he said they violated an agreement made years ago by Coptic scholars that new discoveries should be made accessible to all qualified scholars.

The manuscript will ultimately be returned to Egypt, where it was discovered, and housed in the Coptic Museum in Cairo.

Ted Waitt, the founder and former chief executive of Gateway, said that his foundation, the Waitt Institute for Historical Discovery, gave the National Geographic Society a grant of more than $1 million to restore and preserve the manuscript and make it available to the public.

" I didn't know a whole lot until I got into this about the early days of Christianity. It was just extremely fascinating to me," Mr. Waitt said in a telephone interview. He said he had no motivation other than being fascinated by the finding. He said that after the document was carbon dated and the ink tested, procedures his foundation paid for, he had no question about its authenticity. "You can potentially question the translation and the interpretation, he said, but you can't fake something like this. It would be impossible."



Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  (#2 (permalink)) Old
 
Stella's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 4,843
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Last Online: 23rd August 2007
Join Date: Sat Aug 2005
View Stella's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 10th April 2006

Thanks Osiris for the infos!
Guess what at the Sunday mass our priest already condemned this new sensation too, along with the Dan Brown book, da Vinci Code!

I found an english version of the Gospel, however I am not sure whether its a complete one or not.

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/ma...%20Translation

ps: heres the whole text: http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/l...ptic_text.html
Reply With Quote
  (#3 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
WiseCookie's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 4,032
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 13 Posts
Last Online: 2 Weeks Ago
Join Date: Tue May 2004
View WiseCookie's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 10th April 2006

I'm not accepting or refuting this document, however, if a document is found about this fact, it doesn't have to be true. If we consider every manuscript that we find about the Jesus true, then oh my, what a bunch of contradictory beliefs we'll have. It was written in 300 A.D, 300 years after jesus's resurection. I find it a bit too late to write a "historical" document.
Reply With Quote
  (#4 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
Big_Brother's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 656
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Last Online: 19th March 2008
Join Date: Tue Mar 2005
View Big_Brother's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseCookie
It was written in 300 A.D, 300 years after jesus's resurection. I find it a bit too late to write a "historical" document.
Maybe so, but the 4 canonical gospels of Matthiew, Luke, Mark and John are not older than that.

The problem raised by these gnostic books is that they show us the beliefs of these sects of early christianity that are in opposition with the orthodox church and the emperor.
Knowing the problems raised by the interaction of religion and politics, and the fact that these people were persecuted for their faith by christians who share (almost) the same version of christianity that we have now, these newly discovered gospels could discredit all existing christian churches. No wonder priests are already fighting them.

In a few words, what if everything we know about Jesus is just wrong ?
Reply With Quote
  (#5 (permalink)) Old
 
Stella's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 4,843
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Last Online: 23rd August 2007
Join Date: Sat Aug 2005
View Stella's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Brother
In a few words, what if everything we know about Jesus is just wrong ?
Th Truth is constant, no matter what we think or believe. By the way, Jesus said: the Truth will set you free.
Reply With Quote
  (#6 (permalink)) Old
Mey
Registered Member
 
Mey's Avatar
 
Online
Posts: 3,810
Thanks: 66
Thanked 30 Times in 18 Posts
Last Online: 4 Hours Ago
Join Date: Tue Mar 2005
View Mey's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

The idea of Judas delivering Jesus to arrest as said by the article has been roaming earlier and Scorcezy used those stories in his movie the Last Temptation of Christ. He was attacked heavily by the Church (which I dont blame of course) although I disagree with the banning of the movie.

On that specific issue, Judas was always condemned by the current Christian faith for betraying Jesus however the theory of Jesus wanting to sacrifice himself to me is not that far fetched. Remember with Jesus sacrificing himself with the help of Judas is a lesson to humanity, a lesson about sacrifice for God, for one's beliefs, etc....

The same logic of sacrifice has been applied by Hussein in the Chiite faith, where Hussein sacrificed himself so that the others would learn from his sacrifice.

I dont understand why would people refuse so much the idea of Jesus sacrificing himself, I think its a noble idea in itself.
Reply With Quote
  (#7 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
Inanna's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 3,995
Thanks: 89
Thanked 72 Times in 45 Posts
Last Online: 27th November 2008
Join Date: Mon Feb 2005
View Inanna's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseCookie
I'm not accepting or refuting this document, however, if a document is found about this fact, it doesn't have to be true. If we consider every manuscript that we find about the Jesus true, then oh my, what a bunch of contradictory beliefs we'll have. It was written in 300 A.D, 300 years after jesus's resurection. I find it a bit too late to write a "historical" document.
same here! i dont trust all the books that suddenly emerge out of nowhere! and they all seem to want to touch something deep in Christianity!
and i agree on the last idea raised by wc!
Reply With Quote
  (#8 (permalink)) Old
Registered Member
 
coralie's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 8,197
Thanks: 117
Thanked 279 Times in 204 Posts
Last Online: 9th November 2008
Join Date: Thu Apr 2005
View coralie's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

for me this is another intresting article good to know others point of views but it does nt go any further !
Reply With Quote
  (#9 (permalink)) Old
Community Staff
 
Osiris's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,139
Thanks: 72
Thanked 103 Times in 71 Posts
Last Online: 1 Day Ago
Join Date: Mon Feb 2005
View Osiris's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiseCookie
I'm not accepting or refuting this document, however, if a document is found about this fact, it doesn't have to be true. If we consider every manuscript that we find about the Jesus true, then oh my, what a bunch of contradictory beliefs we'll have. It was written in 300 A.D, 300 years after jesus's resurection. I find it a bit too late to write a "historical" document.
So true WiseCookie, but you can also question the 4 gospels too! I mean, how can you be sure about the gospels of Matthiew, Luke, Mark and John?! same story goes again.

Again, I am not trying to prove anything, it's just an interesting subject to me.
Reply With Quote
  (#10 (permalink)) Old
Community Staff
 
Osiris's Avatar
 
Offline
Posts: 2,139
Thanks: 72
Thanked 103 Times in 71 Posts
Last Online: 1 Day Ago
Join Date: Mon Feb 2005
View Osiris's Photo Album
Default Re: Gospel of Judas - 11th April 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inanna
same here! i dont trust all the books that suddenly emerge out of nowhere!
what do you mean by "suddenly emerge out of nowhere" ?! This gospel was tested and its authenticity was proven !!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inanna
and they all seem to want to touch something deep in Christianity!
It is just another point of view of why Judas betrayed Jesus!
If you think of it as Mey explained, it would make sense.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Orange Room - forum.tayyar.org FPM Community Forums Self Improvement


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Forums Directory