God, Christians and Humanity

[Stella]

Shaddow,

The problem you mentioned seems to me rather caracteristic in Lebanon, as I cant see these tendency here in Europe for example. However the ignorance is spreading everywhere, just maybe not in that form as you mentioned, in Lebanon.

As I quoted this many times, its still something that everybody shall realize and memorize.

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there."

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

the above does not apply to mainline evangelicals (baptists, presbyterians,...) NO priests, NO icons, NO symbols, NO rituals, NO holidays...these doctrines are the basis of ''The Reformation''.

What are you talking about? Do some more research on protestantism then!

[Abu Jaafar]

Originally Posted by Stella23

What are you talking about? Do some more research on protestantism then!

Stella23, what dr. maalouf is talking about is a generalization about their doctirine. IN their doctirines there is none of that institutional man-made hypocritical blah blah blah stuff.... this is a difference to be noted with some other Christian denominations... As with every religion and denomination, when it comes to the people you can not generalize. And in anything human you will find hypocrisy and all sorts of dark things.

You know I despise institutional religion or religion period... they are used in such terrible ways and it is not only Christianity. they give you some truth and then manipulate it and twist it and extort money and empower themselves through it. Anyways Ghandi said something sort of like this 'I like your Christ but I dont like your Christianity' (i dont remember it)... I think the thought can apply to many Lebanese Christians very well (no allusion to the FPM forum member 'Lebanese Christian')... i believe the nature of man is just corrupt to the core so anything he touches is bound to like more like his true nature.

[drmaalouf]

Originally Posted by Stella23

What are you talking about? Do some more research on protestantism then!

Trust me, I am more or less knowledgable about protestantism. I have read alot about them and their doctrines and my beliefs have been shaped a lot by the reformation movement.

What am I talking about? By ''basis of reformation'' I wasn't implying it's historical aspect but it's current situation. Those things I mentioned weren't why the reformation started, I meant that they characterize the current Reformed Churches. So, I reaffirm, mainline evangelicals (like Baptists for examples) have NO priests (they instead have pastors who have the role of teachers and church leaders and not spiritual mediator between God and man which is what a priest is supposed to be), NO rituals (they do not have a mass with a codified rituals, instead, they hold a church ''meeting'' where they pray and hear a biblical sermon), NO icons (statues, pictures, icons are not allowed as they are a sign of idolatry forbidden in the Bible. The cross is the only symbol)... prove me wrong please.

[shaddow1]

Originally Posted by Stella23

Shaddow,

The problem you mentioned seems to me rather caracteristic in Lebanon, as I cant see these tendency here in Europe for example. However the ignorance is spreading everywhere, just maybe not in that form as you mentioned, in Lebanon.

As I quoted this many times, its still something that everybody shall realize and memorize.

"The kingdom of God is within you and all around you. It is not within buildings of wood or stone. Split a piece of wood and you will find me. Look beneath a stone and I am there."

The kingdom of God may be within us but the reality on the ground is that we are humans with frail sppirituality. WE need buildings to serve as tangible symbols for us. And until we reach this advanced stage of spiritualism which even Europe has never reached, we have to deal with what is before us.
Sadly we live in a sectarian society for reasons well known to all. We have to deal with the poonderables on the ground and the church here has to play a leading role. From what I can judge people have more fear of a loving God than faith in him. The church in its wordly philosophies is more concerned with owning buildings even when they are empty. Few have tried to change people's attitude but even the donors do give simply to ybaydo wejjoun ma3 allah more so than to actually serve his cause.
Why go from one extreme to another when you know either way there are losers be it imaginary or real. I believe the two should go hand in hand. Allocate funds to serve the people earthly needs for after all to whom will the bells toll when reality has crushed them and they have disappeared.
Individuals can do small work to influence the outcome but the church is too powerful an institution to ignore. The flock will trust a church that leads them to misery than a secualr person that leads them to salvation. It's a fact of life.

People need jobs to survive, medication to fight illness, education to get ahead. The focus should shift to providing the wordly means for these people to go on rather than overburden them with the need to spare whatever little they have to build a kindom which cannot truly exist except in their own hearts as you said. It must not play a passive role when that leads to nothing for in the case of the towns I stated, inaction can only lead to regret one day.
We have rich history of experiences to substantiate this point of view.

[Stella]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

Trust me, I am more or less knowledgable about protestantism. I have read alot about them and their doctrines and my beliefs have been shaped a lot by the reformation movement.

What am I talking about? By ''basis of reformation'' I wasn't implying it's historical aspect but it's current situation. Those things I mentioned weren't why the reformation started, I meant that they characterize the current Reformed Churches. So, I reaffirm, mainline evangelicals (like Baptists for examples) have NO priests (they instead have pastors who have the role of teachers and church leaders and not spiritual mediator between God and man which is what a priest is supposed to be), NO rituals (they do not have a mass with a codified rituals, instead, they hold a church ''meeting'' where they pray and hear a biblical sermon), NO icons (statues, pictures, icons are not allowed as they are a sign of idolatry forbidden in the Bible. The cross is the only symbol)... prove me wrong please.

Then you shall talk abt those branches of protestantism, bc surely you know that for others your statements dont stand at all.

[Stella]

Originally Posted by shaddow1

The kingdom of God may be within us but the reality on the ground is that we are humans with frail sppirituality. WE need buildings to serve as tangible symbols for us. And until we reach this advanced stage of spiritualism which even Europe has never reached, we have to deal with what is before us.
Sadly we live in a sectarian society for reasons well known to all. We have to deal with the poonderables on the ground and the church here has to play a leading role. From what I can judge people have more fear of a loving God than faith in him. The church in its wordly philosophies is more concerned with owning buildings even when they are empty. Few have tried to change people's attitude but even the donors do give simply to ybaydo wejjoun ma3 allah more so than to actually serve his cause.
Why go from one extreme to another when you know either way there are losers be it imaginary or real. I believe the two should go hand in hand. Allocate funds to serve the people earthly needs for after all to whom will the bells toll when reality has crushed them and they have disappeared.
Individuals can do small work to influence the outcome but the church is too powerful an institution to ignore. The flock will trust a church that leads them to misery than a secualr person that leads them to salvation. It's a fact of life.

People need jobs to survive, medication to fight illness, education to get ahead. The focus should shift to providing the wordly means for these people to go on rather than overburden them with the need to spare whatever little they have to build a kindom which cannot truly exist except in their own hearts as you said. It must not play a passive role when that leads to nothing for in the case of the towns I stated, inaction can only lead to regret one day.
We have rich history of experiences to substantiate this point of view.

Ok, so we know the root causes of the problem, which are really hard to treat, as they are imprinted deep in peoples minds and habits. Would a changing coming from inside make a difference? What can an individual do abt this in practise? If he/she cannot persuade a whole community?

[CPL]

Ok sorry I'm answering late, here's my answer for the main question.

I can say one thing about sects, they're ridiculous.

Here's a story of the sect my family belongs to, in 1710 the Greek Orthodox churchu split in the Levantine simply because one part wanted a patriarch, and the other part wanted another. So one group simply followed the Pope to set their own patriarch, and became Greek Catholics. What started as a ridiculous thing, people now take it seriously as a serious sect ha!

And I have two things to say about the church, it's elusive and hypocrite.

What about all those marble halls and golden cups? While it preaches about helping the poor.

What about the church's ban against condoms which lead to an AIDS disaster in Africa among naive believers? While it preaches against killing.

What about the middle ages where other beliefs were sanctioned, and men of science burned, and skeptics drown?

What about all the pedophile issues done by priests and bishops in which very few got penalized for it, and most of them got a tap on their hand?

What about interference in politcs? As I recall the Vatican was one of the first supporters of Taef, supporter of the Syrian regime in Lebanon, or 13 october.

And there's more and more and more and more....!!!


I know I'm a bit aggressive in my opinion, but I want you to tell me, when was the last time a priest knocked on your door without hoping to get paid for spraying some water around?

When was the last time a priest baptized for free? married a couple for free?

Rare are the times I see a priest take a cab. More often I see them in new cars.

They used to teach us that the Beatles are satanic, just to elude us with the fact that they, the church, are thieves.

[shaddow1]

Originally Posted by Stella23

. Would a changing coming from inside make a difference? What can an individual do abt this in practise? If he/she cannot persuade a whole community?

Change could come from all directions but it's most efficient in this case if it comes from the church.
Here the individual can try different means to reach a compromise. Using the very words you wrote above is a powerful tool in the hands of the individual. Besides the faith should allow room for common sense.

Dealing with these issues is quite educational especially when it kills enthusiasm. Yet, listen to this irony. When the church finally came round to consider other ideas, donations dried up. And everyone lost.

But there remain these people who need medication. Here the individual has to play a role even if he/she fails to convince to community and hopes that his work be institutionalised some day. It's hard to tell someone you cant have your medication simply because you cant afford it.

[Stella]

Originally Posted by shaddow1

But there remain these people who need medication. Here the individual has to play a role even if he/she fails to convince to community and hopes that his work be institutionalised some day. It's hard to tell someone you cant have your medication simply because you cant afford it.

You mean that playing a lonely angel? Well blessed are those angels! Maybe these angels shall unite for this good cause and start the work together, and start changing by that some old imprints of the community.

[shaddow1]

Originally Posted by Stella23

You mean that playing a lonely angel? Well blessed are those angels! Maybe these angels shall unite for this good cause and start the work together, and start changing by that some old imprints of the community.

Stella,
They dont really have to be lonely or un-lonelyangels . Sometimes all that is needed is a social conscience. Church fund raisings are always perfect arena to tap into this reserve of goodwill that people have. You dont hink God will come down hard on us of we take advantage of celebrations done in his honour to practise some of his teachings.