Gender Equality

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Salome

Are you one of those oversensitives, who sometimes forget the reality on the ground? For me it would be even perfectly ok if he happens to be hindu. Since am sure you know well the politics behind it, I dont think we need to go into that here now.

Just wanted to point out in Lebanon, for now, gender equality doesnt apply in every aspects.

Yes, that's very clear. But the example you drew on wasn't 'nice' of you.

The politics behind it is the same as the politics that was behind nationalizing Christians. Unless you want us to envision the phalangist crusades as angels with wings

[LiNk]

Originally Posted by dodzi

What repercussions in France are you talking about? And how is that similar to Lebanon?

Also, my tone is perfectly logical:

1- everyone knows that the mothers' citizenship issue is only a problem for Muslims and not with Christians.
2- seems like everybody is denying number 1-, so may I remind you that 400.000 Christian Palestinians were given the citizenship before the civil war, and we're not talking about those with Lebanese mothers, we're talking about regular naturalization!

I think we're getting slightly off-topic here dodzi, however, I should make things clear.
I do not belong to those refusing Palestinian settlement while encouraging mass naturalization of anybody who happens to be Christian (i.e. giving citizenship to Iraqi Christians for example). I was speaking from a moral point of view, taking into consideration the social and demographic aspects of such an issue.
I am categorically against mass naturalization, Lebanon is already composed of 18 sick minded tribes. Would I want to add another one ? No.
We take pride in our religious diversity, and by doubling one of the countrie's main components, that diversity would be doomed. Be them Shia, Christians or Sunni. Besides, what about their political allegiance?
Furthermore, Lebanon is a small country of 10450 Km2. This area can barely contain the Lebanese, and I am not even taking into account the 15 million Lebanese outside. Let's not push it to the brink of saturation.

Therefore, Salome has a point. And you know and I know that for her, it is not about their religion (she already stated that is doesn't matter if they're Hindu). It's about the political dimension of the problem, which makes it quite difficult to achieve gender equality when it comes to the citizenship issue.

Let's not take it to the narrow individual level. No one here is a big fan of double standards, nor a hypocrite.

[LiNk]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

No, we only want to give the Shiaa nationalities to even it out since all had their go but us

I didn't know that Palestinian Christians were nationalized. This leads to the thought that if the Palestinians in those camps were Christians, they would've been nationalized and the majority of Christians wouldn't have said 'no'... Why the hypocricy and double standards?

"Patriotism" HAHA! What a joke!

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Yes, that's very clear. But the example you drew on wasn't 'nice' of you.

The politics behind it is the same as the politics that was behind nationalizing Christians. Unless you want us to envision the phalangist crusades as angels with wings

Dalzi, for me such Christians are as hypocrite as those in favor of settling the Palestinians. Such a disgusting sectarian behavior is nothing less than the vivid proof of a disordered mentality.
You're right, maybe Salome's example wasn't the 'nice' one to point out. Nevertheless, it reveals a huge political obstacle that's having bad repercussions on the gender equality issue. And it would be healthy to discuss it in order to find a correct and reasonable solution.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

No, we only want to give the Shiaa nationalities to even it out since all had their go but us

I didn't know that Palestinian Christians were nationalized. This leads to the thought that if the Palestinians in those camps were Christians, they would've been nationalized and the majority of Christians wouldn't have said 'no'... Why the hypocricy and double standards?

"Patriotism" HAHA! What a joke!

No, the christians wont support such an act which would give citizenship to 100s of thousands of Palestinians, be those even christians themselves. Seems you dont know the christians well:)

Originally Posted by Dalzi

Yes, that's very clear. But the example you drew on wasn't 'nice' of you.

The politics behind it is the same as the politics that was behind nationalizing Christians. Unless you want us to envision the phalangist crusades as angels with wings

Whats wrong with my example? You say it is not nice? Well sorry this is the reality on the ground, and we better stop acting ostrich.

Anyway the citizenship is a hot topic issue when it comes to women rights, and although I support womens right all the way, in this sole aspect I dont support the green light. It would be just normal in any other country, but Lebanon.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Salome

No, the christians wont support such an act which would give citizenship to 100s of thousands of Palestinians, be those even christians themselves.

They did it in the past, they'd do it again ;)

Seems you dont know the christians well:)

The problem is that I know everyone all too well.

Whats wrong with my example? You say it is not nice? Well sorry this is the reality on the ground, and we better stop acting ostrich.

Anyway the citizenship is a hot topic issue when it comes to women rights, and although I support womens right all the way, in this sole aspect I dont support the green light. It would be just normal in any other country, but Lebanon.

LOL! Double stardards? Why don't you support the green light when it comes to Palestinian children with Lebanese mothers? Since men have the right to give their children their nationality, so should women. I find it comical how the Lebanese think they're better than their neighbours, very funny. A non-Lebanese woman is crazy to marry a Lebanese man and throw herself into that mess. I don't get it... Why this animosity towards the Palestenians when we know perfectly well who's the more racist? And besides, the leading Christian party with the phalangist Bash on top, had to be crushed back then, no regrets when it comes to that at all. There were many positive things about the civil war, one of which is ending the racist Maronite empire. Cheers to that If any group wants to create an 'empire' neglecting others and trodding over their rights as equal citizens, it should be crushed immediately.

Now back to our topic, if we're talking about women rights, we gotta show some consistency in ideas to make sense. If one woman has the right to give her children her nationality, so should the other. If you're going to disagree with this, you'll be pushing me to want to bring some Shiaa Iraqis and nationalize them.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Dalzi

LOL! Double stardards? Why don't you support the green light when it comes to Palestinian children with Lebanese mothers? Since men have the right to give their children their nationality, so should women. I find it comical how the Lebanese think they're better than their neighbours, very funny. A non-Lebanese woman is crazy to marry a Lebanese man and throw herself into that mess. I don't get it... Why this animosity towards the Palestenians when we know perfectly well who's the more racist? And besides, the leading Christian party with the phalangist Bash on top, had to be crushed back then, no regrets when it comes to that at all. There were many positive things about the civil war, one of which is ending the racist Maronite empire. Cheers to that If any group wants to create an 'empire' neglecting others and trodding over their rights as equal citizens, it should be crushed immediately.

Seemingly I always gave you more credit than you have deserved. Your above post is very disappointing, I dont think one has to analyse a lot why.

Now back to our topic, if we're talking about women rights, we gotta show some consistency in ideas to make sense. If one woman has the right to give her children her nationality, so should the other. If you're going to disagree with this, you'll be pushing me to want to bring some Shiaa Iraqis and nationalize them.

We better stay on topic, and yes I have to disagree with you. Lebanon as I said is an exception at this moment, this issue is too overpoliticized, and the consequences of the green light would result in the "racist Hariri empire" using your terminology. I wonder if you wish for that.

There are so many issue one can improve in the situation of women in Lebanon, dont think citizenship should be priority now.
Of course those who campaign solely for political gains (they are being well paid for it), using womens rights as an empty slogan only, they are eager now to hammer the topic.

[Salome]

One of the countries where gender equality still sounds like a slogan from a fairy tale, I dont see yet any changes coming soon, but at least there are some who keep the struggle:


Afghan woman candidate packs gun, wears trousers

By Kamal Sadat

KHOST, Afghanistan (Reuters) - Like many a village elder campaigning for a seat on a provincial council in rural Afghanistan, Okmina begins each day donning a black turban, strapping on a pistol and heading out to talk to neighbors.

The difference is she is a woman, dressed as a man.

Watching Okmina meet with villagers in traditional Afghan men's baggy trousers and long shirt, with a few strands of red henna-dyed hair poking out from the black turban coiled around her head, it is hard to tell she is not a man, until she speaks.

"I dress like a man, especially during this election period when security is not good," said Okmina, who, like many Afghans, uses only one name.

"For my campaigning, I have to go to remote parts in my area where it is not safe for me to go as a woman," she said laughing.

Afghanistan's constitution reserves a quarter of provincial council seats for women, guaranteeing them a role in political life, but in deeply conservative areas where women are expected to cover up and stay home, they can be a target for defying traditional roles.

FORCED INTO HIDING

There are nearly 350 women registered as provincial council candidates in the August 20 poll, about 10 percent of the total. The United Nations says many have faced threats, some have been forced into hiding and others have had to curtail campaigning.

Two women are also among the 35 challengers to Hamid Karzai for the presidency, although they are both seen as unlikely to get more than 1-2 percent.

Male villagers in Okmina's remote province seem to relate to her just as they would to a man, discussing their problems with her while their children scurry about her feet.

Okmina is not married and has no children of her own, but lives with her extended family in Tani district of Khost province, a particularly conservative area bordering Pakistan's tribal region.

She says she started wearing men's clothing, ditching the all-enveloping burqa worn by many women in Afghanistan, when she was made a tribal elder in her community, settling disputes among tribes in Tani and neighboring districts.

She gave up her duties as a tribal elder and decided to run in the provincial election after she said she gained massive support from people all over her province. She says she wants to help others become like her.

"Women don't have rights in Afghanistan. If there are rights, it is too little. There is a big difference between men and women. Here a man can say anything he wishes but a woman's voice is always suppressed," she said.

Voters should not look at a candidate's gender, but at their qualifications, she said.

"It is not important whether you are a man or a woman. It is important to serve the desperate people of Afghanistan."

(Additional reporting by Hamid Shalizi in KABUL; Writing by Jonathon Burch; Editing by Peter Graff)

[TripolySunni]

I Just heard About an interesting experiment conducted in occupied Palestine, It seems that the Debate between "Nurture and Nature" has been going on for a while in the US where there is this theory which says that:" Boys = Girls and the differences we see between the 2 are a result of Conditionning" and by conditionning they meant The Parents influence the Boys to wear blue for example and play with Guns and Cars whereas the Girls are taught to play with Dolls and wear pink ect...
So in order to carry on with the controlled experiments they got a big number of boys and girls who have been separated from their parents at the earliest possible age and they put them in a type of dormitory and they had rooms filled with all sorts of toys and makeup and activities. They thought that by doing such an experiment the Boys would have no problem playing with the dolls and the girls would go for the guns.
It was to their surprise that they found out time and time again as they held these experiments that the Boys kept on going for the guns and the cars and the mechanical things whereas the girls would go for the Jewels and the dolls and the makeup.

The west via Feminism tries to indoctrinate the world with such ideas (for some reason) but what they have discovered scientifically is that boys and girls are different and this has been reviewed by peer groups and confirmed.

Here's the complete speech by Brother Abdul-Raheem Green Entitled "Islam Opresses Women" However he barely mentions Islam so it's not religious for the first 28 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRs7Us-a6CU

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

I Just heard About an interesting experiment conducted in occupied Palestine, It seems that the Debate between "Nurture and Nature" has been going on for a while in the US where there is this theory which says that:" Boys = Girls and the differences we see between the 2 are a result of Conditionning" and by conditionning they meant The Parents influence the Boys to wear blue for example and play with Guns and Cars whereas the Girls are taught to play with Dolls and wear pink ect...
So in order to carry on with the controlled experiments they got a big number of boys and girls who have been separated from their parents at the earliest possible age and they put them in a type of dormitory and they had rooms filled with all sorts of toys and makeup and activities. They thought that by doing such an experiment the Boys would have no problem playing with the dolls and the girls would go for the guns.
It was to their surprise that they found out time and time again as they held these experiments that the Boys kept on going for the guns and the cars and the mechanical things whereas the girls would go for the Jewels and the dolls and the makeup.

The west via Feminism tries to indoctrinate the world with such ideas (for some reason) but what they have discovered scientifically is that boys and girls are different and this has been reviewed by peer groups and confirmed.

Here's the complete speech by Brother Abdul-Raheem Green Entitled "Islam Opresses Women" However he barely mentions Islam so it's not religious for the first 28 minutes:
YouTube - Does Islam Oppress Women? - Abdur Raheem Green

After the fruitless attempt in finding the long sought for gay gene. They want to 'prove' that boys could be born "girly" (another term for sissy) and vice versa :D (For some reason I like the terms "bannoute" and "mestarjle" :D They not only describe but also insult :D) If children are left with no parental/social influence they would be the natural boys and girls they are 'made' to be. I would like to see some studies on how society and family stuff up mentality to turn it from normal to crazy.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Salome

Seemingly I always gave you more credit than you have deserved. Your above post is very disappointing, I dont think one has to analyse a lot why.

We better stay on topic, and yes I have to disagree with you. Lebanon as I said is an exception at this moment, this issue is too overpoliticized, and the consequences of the green light would result in the "racist Hariri empire" using your terminology. I wonder if you wish for that.

There are so many issue one can improve in the situation of women in Lebanon, dont think citizenship should be priority now.
Of course those who campaign solely for political gains (they are being well paid for it), using womens rights as an empty slogan only, they are eager now to hammer the topic.

Giving a child of a Lebanese woman the citizenship of his mother has nothing to do with Hariri and his empire. It should be her right and the child's right. If we want to be selective, then we are being nothing but racist and sectarian. If these rights for women were to pass, would you include the exception of those whose fathers happen to be Palestinian or Sunni? LOL! Maybe you could also try banning marriage to Palestinians

The nationalization of the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians threatens me before you (as you should know); but what does that have to do with children from Lebanese mothers? I don't make statements which are very far from logic and based on sectarianism for anyone to 'credit' me; neither do I need anyone's credit nor am I after it ;)