The existence of God

[coralie]

so now many of you say they need evidence proof that God existe . no proof no evidence = no God ? . ok fine
you all are willing to go for the big bang that some of you say there is "scientific evidence" behind it ok fine then :

what provocked the big bang ? it just happened ? happened just like this from no where ? big bang = big explosion right ? explosion of what ? a mass ? cells ? something else ? where did this mass ,cell , the "something else" come from ? it simply existed ? how ? any proof ? any evidence ? if you can prove till the end all the facts ya3ni if it was in the begining a mass that exploded or a cell or an atome or even smaller what ever it was ,where did it come from to begin with . can anyone answer that please ?
let me have the proof now how magnificant the scientific human mind is to be able to find the answers to every thing ! even to deny the presence of God because for them every thing has scientific evidence because they wont simply admit there is one thing they couldnt decript and could nt prove till this day so it is simpler to deny it ! human always need a proof ...well if God need a proof he will not be called God but more something like DNA or atome or paramicie !

bodhi you asked me why not ask question when we are looking for the truth ? are we looking for truth ? or are we in a race to prove that we can be Gods !

[faithful]

Mmmmmm How logical you are really. This is really funny!!!!

So now you believe every materialist scientist who couldn't prove the existence of God in their researches?? Ya3ni you accept to believe a person, a human being like you who probably can lie and can impose his point of view but you still believe him because he is better than you and could discover about a few things already created in this world and after that he stopped discovering la 2anno ki3i, and you refuse to believe in the Creator himself who is telling you how and where you can find him.

Open your hearts dear friends and don't search for God far away from you. He exists everywhere and in everyone. You are not able to see him because you chose to ignore him and to deny his existence not because you don't have enough scientific proves.

All what you wrote in you posts didn't convince us. 3am bit7ouro wi douro, and you are not answering our questions. Where did the first life come from?? Where did a soul come from ?? why this world is working perfectly and everyhting is in his place ??? Answer just these 3 questions and try to convince us.

[Abu Ruman]

Erroneous post.

[Bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by coralie

bodhi you asked me why not ask question when we are looking for the truth ? are we looking for truth ? or are we in a race to prove that we can be Gods !

i can answer for myself. i am looking for the truth which in itself is an obstacle for finding it because it doesn't need to be searched for, it's all around me.

So i see God in a tree, i see God in the sky, in a Mountain and in running water, down the creek under my house. To me a personified God is just one aspect, and i will not give up the rest for my fear of not understanding what is not like me (personified)

Faithful, i don't know about others, i'm really not here to convince you or anyone of anything especially when it comes to what we consider divine. Whatever works :)

be happy,

[Abu Ruman]

Originally Posted by Maggie

you didn't answer me.
and science didn't answer us before, and will never do because there are many things our mind cannot understand it. do we live in a box for example? or the uviserse has no limits? any dimension? any specific color for the universe?

look to the human body and you will see the answer. the human body is a big miracle indeed you see how it protect itself and how the body fight the viruses and how the boddy end and many other things.

this doesn't mean that i don't have an answer it's quite the contrary it's you who don't have the answer. i am giving you proofs that science and scientists cannot understand everything going on in the universe and cannot give you all the answer you want and this is a proof that GOD is exist and the universe is a miracle

I answered you very precisely on the origin of black holes.

Secondly, you are going about this in circles. All you are saying is that - not because science has limits, but because our brains are limited to what science will reveal, we should abandon it and just trade it in for a symbol that terminates the whole continuum of science.

You are saying, just because the Greeks' knowledge was so limited, they should have tossed science in the can and credited everything to the gods; you're saying just because we cant solve a math problem, we should postulate 'some answer is in the solutions manual and that is the answer, whatever it is, which we will never ever know but who cares, since that is the answer.'

I call that arrogance, fear, and emotional insecurity. Like I said, if you just terminate one dimension of science, then you have to get rid of the whole thing. Every piece of valuable information we have constructed, thus far - since the dawn of mankind - to illustrate an elegant description of the universe, should all go to the bin.

Just because we dont understand something now, doesnt mean we wont a century from now. That is the problem. You are assuming science has some sort of '10 commandments' written out. On the contrary, it is infinite and what we know now was never known 3 centuries ago by the same primitive people asking the same questions you are asking now. Before the invention of the airplane, people too were saying 'how does a bird fly' or 'humans will never be able to fly' just because their knowledge of nature was limited as you are insinuating our present knowledge of the universe is limited, as the ultimatum for terminating our scientific odyssey. I repeat: just because we dont know something now, that doesnt mean this is the end, as if its some assigment with a due date that has passed. If this is what you think, then you dont understand the value of science.

Now about the human body, evolution has already explained this, in astounding detail. This is what they teach to university students, to pre-med students, there are libraries full of 100-page journals elaborating in intricate detail on this matter and it is an answer sufficed through evidence and experiment.

The whole 'look at the complexity of the human body' tale is a very old and outdated one, that has accurately been answered through genetics and evolution.

And this brings me to another question about the 'perfect' human body: why is it our 'perfect' DNA is prone to so many genetic-errors in replication (i.e., mutations), which ultimately leads to cancer? Why would something so 'perfect' erroneously copy itself from time to time? Surely nothing so elegantly 'perfect' can be so lousy at the same time.

[WiseCookie]

Originally Posted by Abu Ruman

And this brings me to another question about the 'perfect' human body: why is it our 'perfect' DNA is prone to so many genetic-errors in replication (i.e., mutations), which ultimately leads to cancer? Why would something so 'perfect' erroneously copy itself from time to time? Surely nothing so elegantly 'perfect' can be so lousy at the same time.

You're touching upon something that really does not justify a good argument. The human body's DNA undergoes millions of mutations. Some do not affect the body, some affect the body positively, some affect it negatively.

If you believe in God and in Evolution at the same time, which is what I believe in. You'll notice that there's something called Natural Selection. People have been given the ability to come up with cures for diseases, which has hindered the process of natural selection. And that is why the "weak" ones survive in today's world, and their "weak" genes are passed on.

Furthermore, there's nothing one can say to dispute people who are so into scientific and materialist proofs that they're blinded by their own logic and refute to accept that there are some things beyond their understanding. Science has been incapable of explaining many things. In things that are suppose to be of normal procedure, science has failed. Materialistically speaking, miracles have been unable to be explained by science. Sudden healings and stigmatas and anything else. If you need physical proof then I only hope that one day you'll be blessed with witnessing a miracle.

But then again, you say that science will eventually prove it, and could possibly prove the non-existence of faith. Well gentleman, no one should mind the fact that you don't believe in God, but it's very hypocritical of those who attack believers for believe in God, such as the "pastafarians". They want their choices to be respected, but they do not respect the choice of others.

[Abu Ruman]

Wisecookie,

First of all, a mutation - by definition - means gentic alteration/replication through error or deliberation. No such 'perfect' system should ever produce one, not even one, error. If one error is produced, that means its not perfect (why would it sometimes produce an error?). I am not arguing that the human body (let alone DNA) is absolutely useless. The creatonist is the one that assertively contends the human body is 'perfect', so therefore, they have to defend such 'perfection' by explaining something so imperfect as mutations. That is the problem with holding such an absolute position. You see, I am asking the creationist to explain to me why DNA is so 'perfect', because when you contend for 'perfection' then you are weighing it against alot of unaccounted negatives. The question remains why in a fraction of these mutational scenarios, does cancer emerge and in other times it doesnt? This is not evidence of perfection, it is evidence of something that is alot more medium and statistical.

The reason we have mutations is not because of perfection, but because this is the way the human body has evolved and this is what allows it to keep evolving. Nowhere would I interject such deceiving terms as 'perfection' because the term 'perfection' by and in itself is only relative to us human beings; its completely subjective. While cancer might be 'imperfect' to me, from the vantage point of the cancer itself, this is evidence of something beneficial and 'perfect.' So you see, I am not interested in such terms as 'perfection' or 'non-perfection', these subjective connotations do not concern scientists, for they are only relative to the perceiver. The question we should ask is 'what do mutations do' from an evolutionary standpoint? Not 'is this perfection', because I can tell you that while you think you're looking at perfection, you are also looking at imperfection and therefore the whole argument is invalid. So, it all comes down to how you ask the question: how do you define 'perfect'; if you're going to base your argument for perfection on the logic of just how 'elegant' the human body and all it's natural functions is, then you also have to apply that logic to how inelegant it is, when a mutation does cause cancer (let alone the fact a mutation is an error). The only conclusion you can come to is that this has nothing to do with 'absolute perfection' - since there are imperfections, of equal magnitude; it can only be explained from a neutral evolutionary standpoint.

Secondly, I have no problem with God believers. That is not my point. There are many believers who accept evolution and God, that is fine. There is another group which not only believes in God, but believes God is superior to science and therefore completely discard evolution. While all creationists are God believers, not all God believers are creationist.

[Abu Ruman]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

Materialistically speaking, miracles have been unable to be explained by science. Sudden healings and stigmatas and anything else. If you need physical proof then I only hope that one day you'll be blessed with witnessing a miracle.

Let us state: you are the one asserting (not vice versa) that miracles exist, and by that very admission, they tip the balance of life in the favor of their anormal phenomena.

While some miracles to you seem unexplained, the ongoing genocides in third-world countries have also not been explained to me, by that equal token of miracle-logic.

I can imagine the natural response as: 'but it is this evil that provides balance with good' which only contradicts the initial premise that we measure miracles on the basis of how asymmetrical they are, with respect to the normal, balanced, reality of life.

One man's miracle, is another man's misery. Miracles are only temporarily unexplained phenomena.

[Kakou]

Originally Posted by terror

That's not really true. Human beings today live on average more than they have ever lived in the entire human history.



This apart from the fact that this issue is not really relevant to the topic :)

Thank you Terror for these statistics!! I'm not sooooooooo stupid to deny that in this millenary, the numbers are growing!!
I was talking about YEARS and YEARS ago, where SCIENCE didn't "invent" yet too many things that offended the HUMAN existence!!
Once more, by believing in GOD and Jesus, I don't say that SCIENCE is wrong!! I know that it's here to discover MYSTERIES created by God himself!!
Science is the most IMPORTANT thing requested by GOD!! He wanted us to LEARN, DISCOVER and use each grace in order to DEVELOP our INTELLECT and our LIFE!! He wanted us to improve and never stop!! For more info about this IDEA, read the 4th post in THIS THREAD! Thank you!

[Kakou]

Originally Posted by LebanesePride

What answers? What question does the holy book answer, and how is it different than any answer i could come up with in half a second.

EVERYTHING!!

And its not a totally different thing. Its your logic in the previous sentence thats wrong "just because you speak of it then it exists". That means every myth every pagan religion ever came up with is real?

YES!! Parce que RIEN ne vient du NÉANT!!
Même les mythes ont des origines VRAIES et c'est l'imaginaire des gens qui ont développé les événements tout comme les mythes de la Création, du Sel... L'intelligence et l'imaginaire des Humains ne sont pas à mépriser après tout!!

Any thought i can come up with, teach it to my children and talk about it is real?

This is what we call OPINION and not TRUTH, and you can transmit it to ANYBODY not only YOUR child who MAY believe in God even if you don't want to teach him ANYTHING about him!! Just like what happened to THIS GIRL.

I dont "believe" in science. Its there.

and I'm not denying!! But it came toooooooooo late!!

They already proved God didnt make 99% of what he said he did :D

Sources??

(ex: earth stayed 4 billions of years before humans appeared)

Thank you!! So SCIENCE couldn't have created EARTH, which is, by the way ONE little planet of a whole galaxy which is one of millions galaxies in universe (this is a fact proven by Science)!!!