Executions in Iran

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by lebanesecanadian

You have not been addressing me in your first 2 paragraphs so I don't know where you proved me wrong regarding the number of replies. Anyways, I didn't get your point on Iran being secular but the post I highlighted had nothing to do with secularism nor did I ever accuse you of being secular. It's just that you preach the ultra-conservatism of theocracy while enjoying the comfort of a western liberal society (and I'm saying that regardless of the fact that you ignored the atrocities shown in this thread which should strike you as a human whether conservative or liberal). That post of yours with beautiful girls in tight clothes simply shows how you do not practice what you preach. I could find plenty more posts of yours if I had the time, but I think your own confession of being "felten" is enough.

You obviously did not understand my point. I said that being secular and supporting the regime in Iran is a point of strength and not hypocrisy. I can enjoy my life just fine and like women, and listen to music and still support Iran's policies internally or externally. This does not show what you are trying to imply. On the contrary, it shows that Iran has a wider support base than just people who are ultra religious. Basically, its a thorn in the eye of people who are trying to label us and Iran. You can dig up as many posts of mine as you like to prove your point, I can do the same about everyone in this forum, but that will not help me or you or anyone else understand the complex nature of people's convictions.

You were [proven wrong in saying that there isn't any targetting of muslims in these threads. I showed you numbers to prove my point. I can also show you posts of certain people who are posting on this thread, and their differing views when it comes to other countries.

So yes Mr. lebanesecanadian, I think and act like a westerner in many ways, I like beautiful women and a good life and I also have respect for my religion and for HA and Iran, and do not talk tyo me about the comforts of wesern liberal society when I can be sent to jail in AAustralia for something called sedition and face a judge not knowing what charges I am facing because the law says I am not allowed to know, just because I speak my mind freely... Or I can end up in Guantanamo for 5+ years without a fair representation or trial. Where an unelected representative of the Queen(governor general) can dismiss the government that I voted for, just like an Ayatollah can in Iran. Critisize that to show me some balance so I can be accepting of the positions taken in this thread against Iran which is being targetted at the moment by the USA and media to soften it up for attack. Everyone here who is engaging in this one sided critisizm has fallen for the trap set for them and aidning in the attack on Iran. Lets bring them the Iraqi model of democracy that the USA is preaching.

[lebanesecanadian]

Originally Posted by Abufijli

You obviously did not understand my point. I said that being secular and supporting the regime in Iran is a point of strength and not hypocrisy. I can enjoy my life just fine and like women, and listen to music and still support Iran's policies internally or externally. This does not show what you are trying to imply. On the contrary, it shows that Iran has a wider support base than just people who are ultra religious. Basically, its a thorn in the eye of people who are trying to label us and Iran. You can dig up as many posts of mine as you like to prove your point, I can do the same about everyone in this forum, but that will not help me or you or anyone else understand the complex nature of people's convictions.

We're obviously repeating the same but drawing contradicting conclusions. You think that reaping the benefits of a Western secular society and enjoying the basic human rights it provides does not contradict with you preaching a system that is diametrically opposed to that (and that has been shown in front of your eyes on this forum with pictures, videos and texts) in its abuses of human rights. You think that it is "strength" and "diversity" while I call it hypocrisy. To each his own and I will not repeat AbuRuman's call to humanity but Ill just develop my point of view. There is a proverb in French that says: "L'habit ne fait pas le moine" meaning that the clothes do not make the priest. So if you think that dressing, acting and living the lifestyle of a Westerner gives you a certain privilege to condone and allow the beatings of women and would make you different from the savages beating them up then you are totally mistaken. Do you truly believe that the way you dress, talk, walk.. makes you any different in the morals department from a bearded conservative Muslim so as to "widen the support base of Iran" ? If you are an ultra-conservative in liberal clothes, than you're either confused or someone trying to downgrade his guilt by his lifestyle.

Originally Posted by Abufijli

You were [proven wrong in saying that there isn't any targetting of muslims in these threads. I showed you numbers to prove my point. I can also show you posts of certain people who are posting on this thread, and their differing views when it comes to other countries.

I countered your numbers with several arguments but you were too angry at Stella to notice. Read my previous posts please and check the number of posts in the thread where that woman was thrown off the balcony.

Originally Posted by Abufijli

So yes Mr. lebanesecanadian, I think and act like a westerner in many ways, I like beautiful women and a good life and I also have respect for my religion and for HA and Iran, and do not talk tyo me about the comforts of wesern liberal society when I can be sent to jail in AAustralia for something called sedition and face a judge not knowing what charges I am facing because the law says I am not allowed to know, just because I speak my mind freely... Or I can end up in Guantanamo for 5+ years without a fair representation or trial. Where an unelected representative of the Queen(governor general) can dismiss the government that I voted for, just like an Ayatollah can in Iran. Critisize that to show me some balance so I can be accepting of the positions taken in this thread against Iran which is being targetted at the moment by the USA and media to soften it up for attack. Everyone here who is engaging in this one sided critisizm has fallen for the trap set for them and aidning in the attack on Iran. Lets bring them the Iraqi model of democracy that the USA is preaching.

You are accusing everyone criticizing Iran of prejudice (including an Iranian himself, mind you) but you have no problem showing your own prejudices against everyone else. Who the hell told you what Odin, AbuRuman, Stella, me or any other participant in this thread think of the Iraq war, Guantanamo or that Queen governor that I've never heard about i????? Is everyone to you who criticizes Iran but that you have never conversed with about Guantanmo by default a racist or a supporter of the Iraq war?????

I also thought we were going to stay away from politics.

[Abu Ruman]

Originally Posted by Abufijli

You obviously did not understand my point. I said that being secular and supporting the regime in Iran is a point of strength and not hypocrisy. I can enjoy my life just fine and like women, and listen to music and still support Iran's policies internally or externally. This does not show what you are trying to imply. On the contrary, it shows that Iran has a wider support base than just people who are ultra religious. Basically, its a thorn in the eye of people who are trying to label us and Iran. You can dig up as many posts of mine as you like to prove your point, I can do the same about everyone in this forum, but that will not help me or you or anyone else understand the complex nature of people's convictions.

The Iranian government believes secularism is a western concept which they associate with kufr. Khomeini himself said (and you can look this up yourself) when he came to power 'it is not the Islamic democratic republic of Iran, not the democratic republic of Iran, it is just the Islamic republic of Iran'

He even thought 'patriotism is another name for Paganism.'

So what is it that you are supporting exactly?

You were [proven wrong in saying that there isn't any targetting of muslims in these threads. I showed you numbers to prove my point. I can also show you posts of certain people who are posting on this thread, and their differing views when it comes to other countries.

Is attacking Saudia's policies also attacking Muslims? Or is it attacking barbarism?

Where an unelected representative of the Queen(governor general) can dismiss the government that I voted for, just like an Ayatollah can in Iran. Critisize that to show me some balance so I can be accepting of the positions taken in this thread against Iran which is being targetted at the moment by the USA and media to soften it up for attack. Everyone here who is engaging in this one sided critisizm has fallen for the trap set for them and aidning in the attack on Iran. Lets bring them the Iraqi model of democracy that the USA is preaching.

As I have mentioned. Iran's history (in my opinion) is full of golden progress, far above Britain's. Prior to the Islamic revolution, Iran was one of the most modern Muslim countries, with a great economy. They had a constitutional revolution. What I am doing is comparing now (its minimum) to its maximum potential it has produced in the past and when looking at that net drop, I am left in awe and disappointment.

And in your example with Britain. Are they battering people in the streets, torturing political opponents of the government, and executing them left and right (within the tens of thousands)?

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by Abu Ruman

The Iranian government believes secularism is a western concept. Khomeini himself said (and you can look this up yourself) when he came to power 'it is not the Islamic democratic republic of Iran, not the democratic republic of Iran, it is just the Islamic republic of Iran'

He even thought 'patriotism is another name for Paganism.'

So what is it that you are supporting exactly?





Is attacking Saudia's policies also attacking Muslims? Or is it attacking barbarism?



As I have mentioned. Iran's history (in my opinion) is full of golden progress, far above Britain's. Prior to the Islamic revolution, Iran was one of the most modern Muslim countries, with a great economy. They had a constitutional revolution. What I am doing is comparing now (its minimum) to its maximum potential it has produced in the past and when looking at that net drop, I am left in awe and disappointment.

And in your example with Britain. Are they battering people in the streets, torturing political opponents of the government, and executing them left and right (within the tens of thousands)?

It is not Britain, I am talking about Australia where the system allows an unelected representative of a far away land to dislove my democratically elected government, here in. Quiet dictatorial in my opinion. I am giving everyone examples to show that it is not all nice and rosy even in the most democratic countries in the world. As for the other points, I will refrain from answering them and go drink my hallah beer and check out hot women in chadore's, you're welcome to join me.

[Abu Ruman]

Originally Posted by Abufijli

It is not Britain, I am talking about Australia where the system allows an unelected representative of a far away land to dislove my democratically elected government, here in. Quiet dictatorial in my opinion. I am giving everyone examples to show that it is not all nice and rosy even in the most democratic countries in the world. As for the other points, I will refrain from answering them and go drink my hallah beer and check out hot women in chadore's, you're welcome to join me.

1. Apologies, for some reason Britain and Queen are necessarily joint figures for me.

2. So you're just going to dodge my other points? What about Khomeini's great 'pro-democracy' sayings? Because I'm wondering what it is you actually support over there (especially in the name of something that doesnt exist).

BTW, do you support democracy and the zionist regime at the same time (in your opinion)? It has nothing to do with strength. I'm just curious to know your individual thoughts, from your own vantage point.

[Abufijli]

Let me make my position clear once more, I like Iran for many reasons and in no way do I consider it to be the ideal state, yes there are problems, but they are not as extreme as the problem we are facing with a rampaging, nuclear armed superpower called the USA. The fact that Iran is being targeted by the USA will make sure I jump to its defence verbally same as I even supported Saddam's Iraq against the USA, even though I hated Saddam's guts. The reason behind this is that these regional countries of ours I consider as related to me, and do not wish to see them harmed for political and financial goals of the USA. Ana w khayi 3a ibin 3ami w ana w ibin 3ami 3al ghareeb.

Ok, I will have a cool drink of water to cool me down and my superstar team has just had a win. I'm going to celebrate with them drinking hallah beer and looking at hot women in chadore's. Care to join us?

[Abu Ruman]

You do understand the majority of Iranians (who oppose and hate the regime) will not welcome military intervention? And you do realize that most of these political prisoners do not welcome an invasion either?

So my suggestion is, for or against America, just forget them for a second and think of the internal struggle of the people themselves (something most people always seem to ignore, which ironically follows right after their so-called die hard support for their 'Iranian brothers and sisters').

[Abu Ruman]

Another good piece on Ayatollah Boroujerdi.

Iran: Outspoken Ayatollah Alleges Official Persecution

PRAGUE (RFE/RL) — A dissident Iranian cleric who advocates the separation of religion and politics, Ayatollah Seyyed Hossein Kazemeyni Boroujerdi, is accusing officials of persecuting him and his followers. Boroujerdi claims dozens of his supporters have been arrested and taken to Tehran’s notorious Evin prison in recent weeks. The ayatollah tells RFE/RL that he has appealed for help from international figures that include the Roman Catholic pope and EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana.

Ayatollah Boroujerdi says that in the past 14 years, he has been summoned on numerous occasions to the country’s Special Court for Clergy and spent months in prison. He claims he still suffers from health problems stemming from torture he was subjected to in prison.

“I was in prison in 1995 for several months. Then, in 2001, I was also arrested several times — they confiscated two of my mosques,” Boroujerdi says. “It’s ridiculous — an establishment that says it is Islamic confiscates an active and open mosque. In 1979, the marjah (eds: source of emulation) at that time, Mr. Golpayegani, put me in charge of the Hematabad mosque. Only a few people used to go to that mosque — but in 2001, when they took it away from me, many people were coming there. We always faced a lack of space for prayers.”

Nipping A Threat?

The Shi’ite cleric says pressure has increased significantly since the summer, following a gathering he held for his supporters. He claims that thousands of people attended his June 30 religious meeting in Tehran’s Shahid Keshvari stadium.

“About two months and a half ago, there was something similar to a coup d’etat against me — because our last meeting was such that it shook the city and it made the establishment think that if they don’t stop me, then there will be millions of people [supporting me],” Boroujerdi says. “So they began harassing me; they surrounded my house for two months.”

Ayatollah Boroujerdi claims that many of his supporters have also been targeted. He says in recent weeks, more than 100 people have been arrested and tortured in jail. He says some have been fired from their jobs, and others have been under pressure to campaign against him.

Iranian officials have been silent on the topic.

But earlier this week, Amnesty International reported that at least 41 of Boroujerdi’s followers were arrested in his courtyard. The rights group has warned that the cleric could be at risk of imminent arrest.

State And Religion

The ayatollah says his belief in the separation of religion from politics and his refusal to support “political religion” have drawn the ire of Iran’s leaders. Iran’s Islamic establishment is based on the principle of “velayat-e faqih,” or the rule of the Islamic jurist.

Reports have emerged in recent years of other clerics and dissidents who have criticized the velayat-e faqih principle being persecuted in Iran.

They include the late Grand Ayatollah Kazem Shariatmadari, an influential Iranian cleric who was placed under house arrest in the 1980s.

Shariatmadari’s son, Hassan, lives in Germany. He told RFE/RL that some 27 years after the establishment of an Islamic republic in Iran, many of the country’s clerics have realized that the involvement of religion in politics subjugates religion to the will of the state.

“The political establishment forces them to accept its demands and interpret the religion in accordance with the establishment’s needs,” Hassan Shariatmadari says. “Most clerics have realized this, but because of the heavy price of opposition to the regime, most of them do not have the courage to express [that view] publicly. Ayatollah Boroujerdi has been able to express the demand for the separation of religion from politics very openly — to a wide audience and with boldness. This is something that this establishment doesn’t like.”

Shariatmadari says he thinks Iran’s leadership feels threatened by Ayatollah Boroujerdi because they are concerned that other clerics could follow his example.

Not Remaining Quiet

Boroujerdi tells RFE/RL that the authorities have threatened him with execution, and told him that the clergy should speak in a united voice.

Boroujerdi has written letters to Pope Benedict XVI and to EU foreign-policy chief Solana noting what he calls the “suspicious death” in 2002 of his father, Ayatollah Seyyed Mohammad Ali Kazemeyni Boroujerdi, who was also a prominent cleric. He claims Iranian authorities expropriated the mosque where his father had preached and destroyed his father’s grave.

But Boroujerdi remains defiant.

“I demonstrate that real Islam is free of political ornaments,” Boroujerdi says. “It is included in verses whose interpretation is different than that provided by [the authorities]. Its interpretation is from 1,428 years ago. It is about the rule of the Prophet [Muhammad] and how he lived; he was against repression and opposed discrimination. Our divine leaders took food from their mouths and the mouths of their children to give it to the poor. Today, unfortunately, despite the immense wealth of this country, people live in poverty.”

‘People Have Turned Away From God’

Boroujerdi says many Iranians have lost faith in religion because of the worsening economic situation, including high inflation and unemployment.

He argues that under the shah’s regime, people’s faith in Islam was much stronger. He thinks belief in God has actually fallen victim to Iran’s theocracy.

“When people lose their income, they directly blame the establishment and they become angry at God,” Boroujerdi says. “I’ve said many times that we should help people worship their God again and make peace with God. Today we are in the month of Ramadan, [but] many people have turned away from God because of repression, discrimination, and pressure.”

One of the ayatollah’s devotees, Hamid, tells RFE/RL that Boroujerdi’s views and defiance have won him support from Iranians of different classes.

“Ayatollah Boroujerdi has never polluted religion with politics,” Hamid says. “He has not become involved in politics, and he has always supported the needy. He has always said, ‘I’m a supporter of the wretched.’ This is, I think, one of the reasons for his popularity.”

Hamid says he is ready to support the ayatollah even “until martyrdom.”

[Abu Ruman]

“I demonstrate that real Islam is free of political ornaments,” Boroujerdi says. “It is included in verses whose interpretation is different than that provided by [the authorities]. Its interpretation is from 1,428 years ago. It is about the rule of the Prophet [Muhammad] and how he lived; he was against repression and opposed discrimination. Our divine leaders took food from their mouths and the mouths of their children to give it to the poor. Today, unfortunately, despite the immense wealth of this country, people live in poverty.”

How come none of the die-supporters of this regime who believe in the 'true Islam' never echo the above words of the ayatollah? They support this cruel regime - which tortures and arrests people arguing for the 'true peaceful Islam' - and then claim Islam is a 'religion of peace' at the same time.

Incredible.

[Abufijli]

To all the people who are over excited about Iran, why haven't I heard you say ONE word, or start a thread about the atrocities going on in Zimbabwe??? That is by far the biggest human rights abuser in the whole wide world. Since you are all humanists I am waiting for your to enlighten us about what goes on there. Or is it not important???

You have all been fooled, and are pawns in a game. If Zimbabwe had oil and a regime opposed to the west, we'd hear all about it. But it does not, so they get away with 100000 times worse atrocities than Iran may ever dream of doing. Your hypocrisy stinks.