Do you believe in God? Why or why not?

[ostwind]

Originally Posted by Ataraxia

I don't think these are true. What part of it is complicated ? Your logic is saying, If I write a book right now and say that something happened and spread it then it must happen because I said so and there were witnesses, etc. Are you serious ?

Can you define a fact?
1-A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred
2-A concept whose truth can be proved

Imo everything in the bible is a fact because everything can be proven and if you ask certain people they would confirm it.
On what basis was the bible written? Is it because someone wanted to have fun and wrote it, or is it because some people were influenced by Jesus and the impact he had on the world.

In addition to that you didnt comment on this : "Can you prove masalan how can the body of saint Charbel be as it was. Can you tell me how the statues release oil like saint Charbel and saint rita".

Btw i'm just giving my opinion nothing more nothing less.

[Ataraxia]

Originally Posted by ostwind

Can you define a fact?
1-A piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred
2-A concept whose truth can be proved

Imo everything in the bible is a fact because everything can be proven and if you ask certain people they would confirm it.
On what basis was the bible written? Is it because someone wanted to have fun and wrote it, or is it because some people were influenced by Jesus and the impact he had on the world.

In addition to that you didnt comment on this : "Can you prove masalan how can the body of saint Charbel be as it was. Can you tell me how the statues release oil like saint Charbel and saint rita".

Btw i'm just giving my opinion nothing more nothing less.

Ok this will be my last reply for you about the "fact" issue. If you think the fact that the bible said what it said proves that it is true, then I seriously don't know what to tell you. I just can't. I know you are attached to your religion, but in order to debate you have to be 1% logical at least.
As for the latter, I answered you : miracles, wossas el zeit hole, they don't exist. In short, you talk as if I acknowledge that God exists, but still don't want to believe in him, which is not the case at all.

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by Ataraxia

It doesn't have to be a "coincidence". Look back to what I said about God suddenly creating the world. It shows how religious people think backwards; They live in a present which they believe required a creator in the past, but when you go back to the point "the world was created", you'll realize that it doesn't make sense for it to happen so that we live in the present. You have to be inclusive and not "live in the moment".

You don't make sense.

I'm sure somebody created the Mobile phone I have then pogrammed it, the same way somebody created and programmed the Human to function, if I'm walking in the deser and I find a mobile phone (main components are Glass for slilicon and Petrol for plastic) I won't say that this is a product of chance and billions of years of oil bubbling and wind blowing and sand clumping.
Let's take an even simpler material like a piece of pottery(main components Clay) when an archeologist finds just a small shard of it in the sand he doesn't Say " Oh! what a Wonderful Chance this is!!!" He says "Someone Made this, Just who could have made it ???" then he starts his research, and in fact the archeologist can tell you so many things about the civilization who made this just out of this piece.
Unlike the animals we humans are not just a bunch of chemicals we have our spirituality and our hopes...You Aethiests have a problem as far as i'm concerned and it's a psychological one rather than an intellectual one, all of you must have had some horrible experience or seen something horrible then blamed it on God, then you think of the most effective way to insulting God which is denying his existance with an absolute statement on something which you have absolutly no knowlege of as opposed to the agnostics which say "Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't".

So What is a God? What makes something a God? Well a God is something that people worship, so why do people worship things? Well they worship something in order to get something which they need in return...So a God is something that people worship and believe can give them what they want and what they need.

In different religions people have different gods for different purposes for example if you wanna win a war then you worship the god of war (not micheal aoun) or if they want someone to fall in love with them then they worship the god or godess of Love and so on...another example is the roman catholics that have different saints for different things such as travel and art or saint anthony for finding lost objects...So there is no difference between worshiping and praying to a god or a saint because in the end you are praying for that being in order for him to grant you something which you need.

Now the religion or the rituals are how you communicate with those beings, such as praying or offerings or even extreme things such as human sacrifice.

So the question Does God exist? can be answered by a simple yes, in fact there are millions of them from Hindu to greek and zoroastrian. because as we all know a god is something which humans put thier hopes and faith in So everyone in the world has a God at some level or another, And these gods are not necessarly Idols or Saints or Planets but they can also be ideas and concepts because people put thier faith and trust in so many things such as communism or science and so on...

Another example in an english family for example a child is brought up on a certain set of rules such as not to wear brown shoes with black pants or he is taught how to eat his breadroll correctly or how to address elders and these strict rules are a type of ritual or a type of religion which the parents believe if thier child would follow then he would be recognized as a member of the upper middle class and then many oppurtunities would open up for him, In other words they believe that this is the WAY and the THING that would get you what you want and what you need and so it becomes a type of God.

Now whenever you ask a Hindu or a Buddhist or any person who worships idols about thier religion then you should expect to hear stories of how This or that thing happened and how he prayed for this god and was rewarded with whatever and how he offered milk to an elephant god (Ganesh) and came the other day to find an empty glass of milk or the Virgin Marry (PBUH) crying or the Crusufied Isa (PBUH) dripping with Blood, and then they say that these experiences are poof that thier gods are real which is the same as the english boy example above, and it's true that sometimes you will get a job only by what virtue of school you go to just as your parents believe and aspire as per thier experiences.

So to sum it all up, everybody has a God and most people have many Gods.

But the question which should be asked now is this: Are any of the things which people put thier faith and trust in, are any of them truly worthy of it?

So let us devide these millions of Gods into broad categories and talk about them in light of the Quran thus showing that they are not worthy of worship.

Now the quran unlike any other book uses a method of dialogue thus god is talking to you directly through it and is presenting the excuses and arguments that aethiests and other religions use and then proving them wrong...
let's take the example of buddah and buddhism in which he teaches that in order to succeed one must abandon life and live in a monastry and if you can imagine every single person on the face of the planet doing that then even the people in the monastry would have no means of surviving and we'd be extinct as a species...So this is really not an inclusive religion.
So this is budha's way of reaching enlightenment and as opposed to the Quran this does not appeal to most people because it does not appeal to common sense which is common to all of humanity (Not Logic because that is a systemized way of thinking). Now the only people who do not agree with common sense are either IN-sane or philosophers.

An example of common sense is: "A Part of something is less than the whole thing" and that is a universal truth, another xample is : "You don't get something coming from nothing".

True or not? Have you ever in the totality of human experience everheard of something just spontaniously appearing out of nothing?

For example when we humans see a Magician pull a rabbit out of the hat we are momentarily surprized because we know by common sense that we cannot get something out of nothing Although we later realise that this is a trick because we refuse to accept that "magic" even after we see it with our own eyes.

Now as we are talkig about common sense and things which we agree upon as humans it is good to note that one of the things which we as humans do not agree upon are "Ethics" and "Morals" such as things we should do and punichments we should undertake.

So no religion can judge another religion of being backwards because of something such as Polygamy as opposed to monogamy, because on what bases is this right and that wrong? and it is good to note that the only reason monogamy got famous in the northern hemisphere is because it was the easiest way to survive in the cold whethear with only one wife and a few children. So this monogamy thing was estabished mostly due to geography and climate.

Anyway so the first Category of people are a minority as History shows and they are the ones who say "There is No creator" and this existance is just a product of random events or whatever...
Now societies which adopted this point of view have been non-existant throughout history or have vanished and evaporated very quickly (Soviet union) that history barely mentions anything about them...
Now if you look at the History of humankind u'll see that almost all societies believed in a creator which transcends creation such as the Zulu in south Africa or the old Australian tribes or Chinese ect.ect... and this is because this idea of a creator is deeply rooted in the fundamentals of common sense which make it a common human experience.
The Quran poses a bunch of rethorical questions in relations to these people such as "Did it come from Nothing?" and the answer is obvious. because when you see something working in a certain pattern we humans think that thee patterns have been imposed upon that Thing. an example of that would be a "Noise" generator in a 3D software, although a noisy pattern is chaotic but in the end it is programmed by the software engineer with certain mathmatical formulas.

The Quran asks and keeps asking you to Look at the alternation of the night and the day look at the animals that you ride and you eat, look at yourselves for God's sake then it says "In all of those are signs for those who are wise and those who understand", these verses all point us towards the same thing that this systemized world and these articulated coordinated systems...you get the idea.

Another example, the ants build huge mudholes with ventalation formed by rings around their kingdom so as to keep the temperature constant because of the heat in south africa, they they have specialized places in order to grow fungus and farm fungus to later consume ect.. now thes ants they are not humans, they can't think like us so were do they get this knowlege from? how do they know how to achieve this complicated yet delicate architecture?

Look at the distance of the earth from the sun Look at the size of the earth in relation to gravity look at the combination of gases on earth, look at the Ozone layer, look at the presence of water, Look at the speed of rotation of this planet around its own axis.... and we can go on forever.

only common sense, there is a hiden power behind this there is a wise super intelligent creator and one thing to note is that this being is UNLIKE US because if he was like us then that being would need a creator of his own which is illogical and I'll tell you why in a simple example.
Imagine I need to lift up heavy Box and I ask you for help, then you tell me Ok I'll help you but I need someone to help me to help you lift it, then that third person says he needs a fourth person to help him help you lift it and so on ...Will this box ever be lifted in the end? No it won't.

So it makes sense that the creator is self sufficient with no beginning nor end and is infinite.

Now the Quran further explains that theproblem with humanity is not hat it doesn't beleive in God, But the problem is that it offers the Qualities of the creator to the creations, such as worshipping Humans or statues or Animals or Human Laws, OR sometimes they attribute to God some of the deficiencies and weaknesses of the creation and this is all called "Shirk" in Islam and the reason fr this is that they speak about god without knowlege and they invent things Because the reality is that what we can come to know about the nature of god through our human minds is in FACT EXTREMLY LIMITED (this is where the holy book comes in).
So when faced with this dilemma we invent stuff, Now there has been a bunch of popular philosophers since around 200 yrs ago called the "deists" and these guys believe that god exists which is very logical but they didn't belive in a personal god which means that they didn't think that God really cared about his creations and we can't have communication with him... Others beleive that God exists but we cannot directly communicate with him because he isn't like us (thus contradicting themselves by attributing the deficiencies of Humans to God). Now in Islam this line of communication can be opened directly at any time and in any place because we belive that he is an all knowing God thus knowing all secrets in our hearts and minds.

Now we come to the Idol worshippers and we skip the dumb ones to get to the smartest Idol worshippers who don't claim that the Idols/totems and statues which they worship have any power but that they are intermediaries or intercessors between them and God (a Statue which represents a Spirit) and they give the example " if you wanna talk to Tony Blair you don't go up to him and shout instead you have to go through Tony's cronies"... and a Sad example that was, because as you know Tony is too good for you so you have to go through special channels ( and they attribute this to god ).
Thier Main idea is that you can't talk to god directly he is too good for you, instead you need to find a priest which can later transmit his message to some demi-god which later transmits it bit by bit to the higher God.... So they imagine god like a King or a prime-Minister (Saint Sanyoura) surrounded by Body-guards and ministers and advisors ( again Human defficiencies) because the question is "Why does Tony need cronies?" well it's because he's a freaking Human who is scared of being assasinated or attacked or simply because he just doesn't have enough time and power to deal with all of us at once. again "Shirk" "Idoletry"

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) is very well known for Smashing Idols, since childhood he used to see his dad carve out statues from wood and then pray to those same statues which he makes, so he asks himself the question "Why are we worshiping things which are controlled by someone else?" and then his people go to thier religious festival and he doesn't attend under the excuse that he is sick, so then he went and smashed all the idols except the cheif idol and then hung his axe around the neck of the Chief Idol, later the king interrogates him and asks him if he is responsible for this and Ibrahim replies: " Ask the Big Statue", then the king says "You know that our Gods can't speak to us" Then Ibrahim responds " Why do you wrship something which can bring you No Benefit Nor Harm?".

Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH) Says Unto his People: "This god/Idol can't even protect itself How is it Going to protect You!?"

isn't that common sense? you don't ask someone who can't help themselves!


The Next Category is the Human God,
The Quran uses the example of Christianity here, so some people they don't just believe that Isa(PBUH) is the Son of God (or "son of man" as written many times in the bible) but they believe that God and Isa are the Same, even Catholics say that Mary (PBUH) is the Mother of God and some worship her (we note that some christians don't even believe in the miraculous birth of Isa(PBUH)) Now I as a Muslim don't really understand what is meant by Mother of God, i hope it it's not as in Taking care of God when he was small or breast feeding him or cleaning him up or getting him circumsized ect.ect...
Anyway As far as i'm concerned God (Father in the sky as in the Bible) can destroy the entire earth with Jesus and Mary on it Thus he Has Power Over Jesus and Mary Thus they cannot be equal to him.
Now by definition God is Infinite self sufficient and immortal.
by Definition Human is Insufficient, Temporary and Mortal.

so when Pharao or Rafic Hariri claimed that he was Human/God that isn't really common sense to anybody.
Now they tell you that God can be Man and that god can do anything, well When you ask them can God do something evil then the answer is this :" He can if he wanted to but he wouldn't because God is Good", So it is in God's Nature to be good the same way it is in God's Nature to be Infinite thus he does not become temporary and it is in God's Nature to be self sufficiant so he does not become Needy... Basically God does Godly things :)

a Square can't become a circle but still be a square
color blue cannot be shifted to red and still be blue

Just imagine this scenario, Me standing in front of God on the day of judgment and him asking me "Why didn't you believe that I was a Man?" then i reply " How can I ever believe that you the great Creator of the worlds the self sufficiant Sustainer of the Universe were a Weak Limited Man, You are Far Above that!" Doubt he'd put me in hell for that BUT imagine the Vice-Versa of this situation.

Next Category is Race and Tribalism,
Quran gives the Example of Bani Israel Mostly

Amongst these people are many who think that they are better purely because they are a Jew (not all of them believe), God's Chosen people "Racism" which is refused utterly and purely in the Quran and everyone else which is why Judaism isn't prospering much and there really isn't much to discuss about these Nazis.

Final Category is the Most famous one and the Most spread from amongst all which is the God of Materializm.

The Idea that Science, Power, wealth, technology and Nothing else is what will make you successful in Life.

Robbie williams, he earns like 30 million dollars a year and he is on anti-depressors...money, money, money...If every human wanted to live the AVERAGE american dream then we would need three and a half planets to provide for all of us. We can't all live tis crappy American dream To Claim that we can all enjoy our Lives Materialistically is a LIE, The worst disaster to strike Humanity is Global Warming its gonna make terrorism look like nothing, Science is Not Going to find the answer for the Americans I assure you.


Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said "Woe be to the worshipper of the Dinar and the Dirham", Kind of reminds you of that dollar bill with "In God we trust" printed on it.


Praise be to Allah the Creator to the Universe and may he guide us all to his path.

[spacecreature]

Are u watching pere Georges Rahme on telelumiere? It's very interesting..trying to marry religion and science, an giving god a more abstract image and meaning. If I want to beleive in something that could be called god (and I never really had this need), this is the only way i would have it. Something really abstract and not some man sitting in the skies terrorizing his deformed creations :) I don't get this need to understand everything and put labels on all things right away. Can't we just say we don't know all that much at this moment and consider everything as theories including religions no matter how rediculous they get. ..and only beleive in them once we have acheived enough knowledge to test their accuracy and true meaning?

[Ataraxia]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

You don't make sense.

I'm sure somebody created the Mobile phone I have then pogrammed it, the same way somebody created and programmed the Human to function, if I'm walking in the deser and I find a mobile phone (main components are Glass for slilicon and Petrol for plastic) I won't say that this is a product of chance and billions of years of oil bubbling and wind blowing and sand clumping.
Let's take an even simpler material like a piece of pottery(main components Clay) when an archeologist finds just a small shard of it in the sand he doesn't Say " Oh! what a Wonderful Chance this is!!!" He says "Someone Made this, Just who could have made it ???" then he starts his research, and in fact the archeologist can tell you so many things about the civilization who made this just out of this piece.

You did not understand what I said. I told you to go back to what I said first, maybe you even didn't. You are being exclusive in your view of God and the creation . Once something is created, it is normal for someone to attribute it to something. The point is, this would be just an assumption and most probably coming from an inability to identify the cause. So I am not going into the details of the big bang, I am just trying to refute the theory of God and creation which would be automatically refuted actually once the big bang theory is ackowledged. Regardless,Why would God create an Earth ? eh ? Why would God create something from nothing ? I noted to you that if there was humans or the concept of a human was existent before God appeared, my argument would fall, but God had the hand in creating human. That is why I said God would be creating the problem to fix it. He created a concept to solve it and in the bigger picture that means at the very most, you can only look at it as a game. That is why it renders the concept of evaluating a human soul futile.

Unlike the animals we humans are not just a bunch of chemicals we have our spirituality and our hopes...You Aethiests have a problem as far as i'm concerned and it's a psychological one rather than an intellectual one, all of you must have had some horrible experience or seen something horrible then blamed it on God, then you think of the most effective way to insulting God which is denying his existance with an absolute statement on something which you have absolutly no knowlege of as opposed to the agnostics which say "Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't".

Talking about sense, I stopped reading at here first simply because you are making assumptions and getting on the defensive. You don't have to panic when someone mentions God and "DOESN'T EXIST". I am looking at your username and it says TripolySunni. I don't like to make assumptions but compared to me I think the road I went through to reach atheism was more "unbiased" and independent than you. You probably was born a sunni and remained so until now. I, However, was born in one of the most religious and politic families yet have decided through my life to chose my choices on my own. So instead of being a die-hard Christian I worked my way to not believe in a God, and instead of following a certain political party I decided to follow my own. So all what you looked like is the following: a pseudo intellectual thinking he was evaluating another being from a superior standpoint.
As for denying God completely, You are proving God completely, so why is my point wrong and yours right ? Why aren't you an agnostic ? Actually if I want to go by that, it is you who have to prove that something exists for as far as aI know I can make a book right now, talk about the God "823475823" and tell you he exists and when you ask me for proof, I would say I don't need to but it is you who has to disprove.

So What is a God? What makes something a God? Well a God is something that people worship, so why do people worship things? Well they worship something in order to get something which they need in return...So a God is something that people worship and believe can give them what they want and what they need.

You are following a primitive formula, which leads you to go in circles. What you said here and in most of the "article" are just words upon words.

In different religions people have different gods for different purposes for example if you wanna win a war then you worship the god of war (not micheal aoun) or if they want someone to fall in love with them then they worship the god or godess of Love and so on...another example is the roman catholics that have different saints for different things such as travel and art or saint anthony for finding lost objects...So there is no difference between worshiping and praying to a god or a saint because in the end you are praying for that being in order for him to grant you something which you need.

Now the religion or the rituals are how you communicate with those beings, such as praying or offerings or even extreme things such as human sacrifice.

So the question Does God exist? can be answered by a simple yes, in fact there are millions of them from Hindu to greek and zoroastrian. because as we all know a god is something which humans put thier hopes and faith in So everyone in the world has a God at some level or another, And these gods are not necessarly Idols or Saints or Planets but they can also be ideas and concepts because people put thier faith and trust in so many things such as communism or science and so on...

Another example in an english family for example a child is brought up on a certain set of rules such as not to wear brown shoes with black pants or he is taught how to eat his breadroll correctly or how to address elders and these strict rules are a type of ritual or a type of religion which the parents believe if thier child would follow then he would be recognized as a member of the upper middle class and then many oppurtunities would open up for him, In other words they believe that this is the WAY and the THING that would get you what you want and what you need and so it becomes a type of God.

Now whenever you ask a Hindu or a Buddhist or any person who worships idols about thier religion then you should expect to hear stories of how This or that thing happened and how he prayed for this god and was rewarded with whatever and how he offered milk to an elephant god (Ganesh) and came the other day to find an empty glass of milk or the Virgin Marry (PBUH) crying or the Crusufied Isa (PBUH) dripping with Blood, and then they say that these experiences are poof that thier gods are real which is the same as the english boy example above, and it's true that sometimes you will get a job only by what virtue of school you go to just as your parents believe and aspire as per thier experiences.

So to sum it all up, everybody has a God and most people have many Gods.

But the question which should be asked now is this: Are any of the things which people put thier faith and trust in, are any of them truly worthy of it?

So let us devide these millions of Gods into broad categories and talk about them in light of the Quran thus showing that they are not worthy of worship.

Now the quran unlike any other book uses a method of dialogue thus god is talking to you directly through it and is presenting the excuses and arguments that aethiests and other religions use and then proving them wrong...
let's take the example of buddah and buddhism in which he teaches that in order to succeed one must abandon life and live in a monastry and if you can imagine every single person on the face of the planet doing that then even the people in the monastry would have no means of surviving and we'd be extinct as a species...So this is really not an inclusive religion.
So this is budha's way of reaching enlightenment and as opposed to the Quran this does not appeal to most people because it does not appeal to common sense which is common to all of humanity (Not Logic because that is a systemized way of thinking). Now the only people who do not agree with common sense are either IN-sane or philosophers.

An example of common sense is: "A Part of something is less than the whole thing" and that is a universal truth, another xample is : "You don't get something coming from nothing".

True or not? Have you ever in the totality of human experience everheard of something just spontaniously appearing out of nothing?

For example when we humans see a Magician pull a rabbit out of the hat we are momentarily surprized because we know by common sense that we cannot get something out of nothing Although we later realise that this is a trick because we refuse to accept that "magic" even after we see it with our own eyes.

Now as we are talkig about common sense and things which we agree upon as humans it is good to note that one of the things which we as humans do not agree upon are "Ethics" and "Morals" such as things we should do and punichments we should undertake.

So no religion can judge another religion of being backwards because of something such as Polygamy as opposed to monogamy, because on what bases is this right and that wrong? and it is good to note that the only reason monogamy got famous in the northern hemisphere is because it was the easiest way to survive in the cold whethear with only one wife and a few children. So this monogamy thing was estabished mostly due to geography and climate.

Anyway so the first Category of people are a minority as History shows and they are the ones who say "There is No creator" and this existance is just a product of random events or whatever...
Now societies which adopted this point of view have been non-existant throughout history or have vanished and evaporated very quickly (Soviet union) that history barely mentions anything about them...
Now if you look at the History of humankind u'll see that almost all societies believed in a creator which transcends creation such as the Zulu in south Africa or the old Australian tribes or Chinese ect.ect... and this is because this idea of a creator is deeply rooted in the fundamentals of common sense which make it a common human experience.
The Quran poses a bunch of rethorical questions in relations to these people such as "Did it come from Nothing?" and the answer is obvious. because when you see something working in a certain pattern we humans think that thee patterns have been imposed upon that Thing. an example of that would be a "Noise" generator in a 3D software, although a noisy pattern is chaotic but in the end it is programmed by the software engineer with certain mathmatical formulas.

The Quran asks and keeps asking you to Look at the alternation of the night and the day look at the animals that you ride and you eat, look at yourselves for God's sake then it says "In all of those are signs for those who are wise and those who understand", these verses all point us towards the same thing that this systemized world and these articulated coordinated systems...you get the idea.

Another example, the ants build huge mudholes with ventalation formed by rings around their kingdom so as to keep the temperature constant because of the heat in south africa, they they have specialized places in order to grow fungus and farm fungus to later consume ect.. now thes ants they are not humans, they can't think like us so were do they get this knowlege from? how do they know how to achieve this complicated yet delicate architecture?

Look at the distance of the earth from the sun Look at the size of the earth in relation to gravity look at the combination of gases on earth, look at the Ozone layer, look at the presence of water, Look at the speed of rotation of this planet around its own axis.... and we can go on forever.

only common sense, there is a hiden power behind this there is a wise super intelligent creator and one thing to note is that this being is UNLIKE US because if he was like us then that being would need a creator of his own which is illogical and I'll tell you why in a simple example.
Imagine I need to lift up heavy Box and I ask you for help, then you tell me Ok I'll help you but I need someone to help me to help you lift it, then that third person says he needs a fourth person to help him help you lift it and so on ...Will this box ever be lifted in the end? No it won't.

So it makes sense that the creator is self sufficient with no beginning nor end and is infinite.

Now the Quran further explains that theproblem with humanity is not hat it doesn't beleive in God, But the problem is that it offers the Qualities of the creator to the creations, such as worshipping Humans or statues or Animals or Human Laws, OR sometimes they attribute to God some of the deficiencies and weaknesses of the creation and this is all called "Shirk" in Islam and the reason fr this is that they speak about god without knowlege and they invent things Because the reality is that what we can come to know about the nature of god through our human minds is in FACT EXTREMLY LIMITED (this is where the holy book comes in).
So when faced with this dilemma we invent stuff, Now there has been a bunch of popular philosophers since around 200 yrs ago called the "deists" and these guys believe that god exists which is very logical but they didn't belive in a personal god which means that they didn't think that God really cared about his creations and we can't have communication with him... Others beleive that God exists but we cannot directly communicate with him because he isn't like us (thus contradicting themselves by attributing the deficiencies of Humans to God). Now in Islam this line of communication can be opened directly at any time and in any place because we belive that he is an all knowing God thus knowing all secrets in our hearts and minds.

Now we come to the Idol worshippers and we skip the dumb ones to get to the smartest Idol worshippers who don't claim that the Idols/totems and statues which they worship have any power but that they are intermediaries or intercessors between them and God (a Statue which represents a Spirit) and they give the example " if you wanna talk to Tony Blair you don't go up to him and shout instead you have to go through Tony's cronies"... and a Sad example that was, because as you know Tony is too good for you so you have to go through special channels ( and they attribute this to god ).
Thier Main idea is that you can't talk to god directly he is too good for you, instead you need to find a priest which can later transmit his message to some demi-god which later transmits it bit by bit to the higher God.... So they imagine god like a King or a prime-Minister (Saint Sanyoura) surrounded by Body-guards and ministers and advisors ( again Human defficiencies) because the question is "Why does Tony need cronies?" well it's because he's a freaking Human who is scared of being assasinated or attacked or simply because he just doesn't have enough time and power to deal with all of us at once. again "Shirk" "Idoletry"

Prophet Ibrahim (PBUH) is very well known for Smashing Idols, since childhood he used to see his dad carve out statues from wood and then pray to those same statues which he makes, so he asks himself the question "Why are we worshiping things which are controlled by someone else?" and then his people go to thier religious festival and he doesn't attend under the excuse that he is sick, so then he went and smashed all the idols except the cheif idol and then hung his axe around the neck of the Chief Idol, later the king interrogates him and asks him if he is responsible for this and Ibrahim replies: " Ask the Big Statue", then the king says "You know that our Gods can't speak to us" Then Ibrahim responds " Why do you wrship something which can bring you No Benefit Nor Harm?".

Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH) Says Unto his People: "This god/Idol can't even protect itself How is it Going to protect You!?"

isn't that common sense? you don't ask someone who can't help themselves!


The Next Category is the Human God,
The Quran uses the example of Christianity here, so some people they don't just believe that Isa(PBUH) is the Son of God (or "son of man" as written many times in the bible) but they believe that God and Isa are the Same, even Catholics say that Mary (PBUH) is the Mother of God and some worship her (we note that some christians don't even believe in the miraculous birth of Isa(PBUH)) Now I as a Muslim don't really understand what is meant by Mother of God, i hope it it's not as in Taking care of God when he was small or breast feeding him or cleaning him up or getting him circumsized ect.ect...
Anyway As far as i'm concerned God (Father in the sky as in the Bible) can destroy the entire earth with Jesus and Mary on it Thus he Has Power Over Jesus and Mary Thus they cannot be equal to him.
Now by definition God is Infinite self sufficient and immortal.
by Definition Human is Insufficient, Temporary and Mortal.

so when Pharao or Rafic Hariri claimed that he was Human/God that isn't really common sense to anybody.
Now they tell you that God can be Man and that god can do anything, well When you ask them can God do something evil then the answer is this :" He can if he wanted to but he wouldn't because God is Good", So it is in God's Nature to be good the same way it is in God's Nature to be Infinite thus he does not become temporary and it is in God's Nature to be self sufficiant so he does not become Needy... Basically God does Godly things :)

a Square can't become a circle but still be a square
color blue cannot be shifted to red and still be blue

Just imagine this scenario, Me standing in front of God on the day of judgment and him asking me "Why didn't you believe that I was a Man?" then i reply " How can I ever believe that you the great Creator of the worlds the self sufficiant Sustainer of the Universe were a Weak Limited Man, You are Far Above that!" Doubt he'd put me in hell for that BUT imagine the Vice-Versa of this situation.

Next Category is Race and Tribalism,
Quran gives the Example of Bani Israel Mostly

Amongst these people are many who think that they are better purely because they are a Jew (not all of them believe), God's Chosen people "Racism" which is refused utterly and purely in the Quran and everyone else which is why Judaism isn't prospering much and there really isn't much to discuss about these Nazis.

Final Category is the Most famous one and the Most spread from amongst all which is the God of Materializm.

The Idea that Science, Power, wealth, technology and Nothing else is what will make you successful in Life.

Robbie williams, he earns like 30 million dollars a year and he is on anti-depressors...money, money, money...If every human wanted to live the AVERAGE american dream then we would need three and a half planets to provide for all of us. We can't all live tis crappy American dream To Claim that we can all enjoy our Lives Materialistically is a LIE, The worst disaster to strike Humanity is Global Warming its gonna make terrorism look like nothing, Science is Not Going to find the answer for the Americans I assure you.


Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) said "Woe be to the worshipper of the Dinar and the Dirham", Kind of reminds you of that dollar bill with "In God we trust" printed on it.


Praise be to Allah the Creator to the Universe and may he guide us all to his path.

As for everything else including the ants subjects going into the gravity thing moving into the human function, you seem to be ignorant of one of the most important topics: which is Evolution and Adaptation. To put a nice headline for you as a basic exemplar of an evolutionist thinking replying to your gravity-distance-earth theory: You simply wouldn't have existed or earth wouldn't have existed had it not been for so ( the specificity and all). You agree with me here. .. But Earth and its surrounding's constituents also would have had to adapt to reach this stage or you wouldn't have existed, right ? Therefore, your existence would have required and entailed adaptation. So your theory of intelligent design is inane and comes yet again ( like all religious debates) from an inability to identify the cause. So all what you are doing is giving a purpose and ofcourse proving how you think backwards.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by tricky

first of all this is not what i believe in ^_^, it's just a theory i read, a possibility. which i dont think it's very much possible ^_^.

so some humans discuss how God would feel and what would do? thats too bold dont you think?

btw dont tell me you dont have time... when somebody tells me i dont have time i feel this strong feeling of them thinking am dumb to actually believe that, we have tons of time that we dont know what to do with it :P so hence we are here to cover the time that we have, we have access of time not no time , there is always time, i dont have time is a lie from the body to the body, i dont want to hear it cause it under estimates my intelligent...

well its just because I do stupid and meaningless things trapped in the 3rd dimension...when is the next train to the 7th dimension?

2- this is about gnostic and dualism it's from wikipedia just seach for "gnostic" and you will get this -->
"Gnosticism (Greek: γνῶσις gnōsis, knowledge) refers to diverse, syncretistic religious movements in antiquity consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect god, the demiurge; this being is frequently identified with the Abrahamic God, and is contrasted with a superior entity, referred to by several terms including Pleroma and Godhead[1]. Depictions of the demiurge - the term originates with Plato's Timaeus[2] - vary from being as an embodiment of evil, to being merely imperfect and as benevolent as its inadequacy permits. Thus, broadly speaking, Gnosticism was a dualistic religion, influenced by and influencing Hellenic philosophy, Judaism (see Notzrim), and Christianity;[citation needed] however, by contrast, later strands of the movement, such as the Valentinians, held a monistic world-view[3]. This, along with the varying treatments of the demiurge, may be seen as indicative of the variety of positions held within the category.

yeah and I was referring to the duality of energy

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by Ataraxia

You did not understand what I said. I told you to go back to what I said first, maybe you even didn't. You are being exclusive in your view of God and the creation . Once something is created, it is normal for someone to attribute it to something. The point is, this would be just an assumption and most probably coming from an inability to identify the cause. So I am not going into the details of the big bang, I am just trying to refute the theory of God and creation which would be automatically refuted actually once the big bang theory is ackowledged. Regardless,Why would God create an Earth ? eh ? Why would God create something from nothing ? I noted to you that if there was humans or the concept of a human was existent before God appeared, my argument would fall, but God had the hand in creating human. That is why I said God would be creating the problem to fix it. He created a concept to solve it and in the bigger picture that means at the very most, you can only look at it as a game. That is why it renders the concept of evaluating a human soul futile.



Talking about sense, I stopped reading at here first simply because you are making assumptions and getting on the defensive. You don't have to panic when someone mentions God and "DOESN'T EXIST". I am looking at your username and it says TripolySunni. I don't like to make assumptions but compared to me I think the road I went through to reach atheism was more "unbiased" and independent than you. You probably was born a sunni and remained so until now. I, However, was born in one of the most religious and politic families yet have decided through my life to chose my choices on my own. So instead of being a die-hard Christian I worked my way to not believe in a God, and instead of following a certain political party I decided to follow my own. So all what you looked like is the following: a pseudo intellectual thinking he was evaluating another being from a superior standpoint.
As for denying God completely, You are proving God completely, so why is my point wrong and yours right ? Why aren't you an agnostic ? Actually if I want to go by that, it is you who have to prove that something exists for as far as aI know I can make a book right now, talk about the God "823475823" and tell you he exists and when you ask me for proof, I would say I don't need to but it is you who has to disprove.


You are following a primitive formula, which leads you to go in circles. What you said here and in most of the "article" are just words upon words.



As for everything else including the ants subjects going into the gravity thing moving into the human function, you seem to be ignorant of one of the most important topics: which is Evolution and Adaptation. To put a nice headline for you as a basic exemplar of an evolutionist thinking replying to your gravity-distance-earth theory: You simply wouldn't have existed or earth wouldn't have existed had it not been for so ( the specificity and all). You agree with me here. .. But Earth and its surrounding's constituents also would have had to adapt to reach this stage or you wouldn't have existed, right ? Therefore, your existence would have required and entailed adaptation. So your theory of intelligent design is inane and comes yet again ( like all religious debates) from an inability to identify the cause. So all what you are doing is giving a purpose and ofcourse proving how you think backwards.

Yea yea, Firstly I was not born a Muslim, My grandfather was Maronite and I was an Aethiest, Secondly "Big Bang" Is Mentionned in the Quran if you didn't know so enjoy that. And in this Quran you talk about tere are 500 clear verses which have been accepeted as scientific Facts (not theories).

Here's ur verse:
(21:30) Did the unbelievers (who do not accept the teaching of the Prophet) not realize that the heavens and the earth were one solid mass, then We tore them apart, and We made every living being out of water? Will they, then, not believe (that We created all this)?

I'm sure this was common knowlege at the time specially for those living in the desert.

You say "Once something is created it is normal for someone to attribute it to something" I say Yes I attribute it to its creator, since you know that it is created Then you surely Must know that there is a creator.
Once you establish that there is a "creator" for a "created" then you want to Know about the Nature of this Creator and here you fall into a trap and mostly start to make stuff up, And this is the reason Prophets are sent with clear messages and guidance.
thirdly When you say that what GOD does is futile, does it not occur to you that god's wisdom is far beyond urs and that it's simply none of ur business what he does, whether he created green or blue trees or whether The earth is Flat or Spherical, You Barely Understand the creature and now you want to fully comprehend the creator.

[tricky]

Originally Posted by Salome

so some humans discuss how God would feel and what would do? thats too bold dont you think?

if you believe in God, then God gave us a brain to use it and an imagination so that we will never run out of ideas and possiblities... if god didnt want us to think he wouldnt bother giving us a brain, so i dont think it's bold...


well its just because I do stupid and meaningless things trapped in the 3rd dimension...when is the next train to the 7th dimension?

dont we all ^_^


yeah and I was referring to the duality of energy

hmm duality of energy do you mean "Ying" & "Yang"? not sure if i spelled it correct and stuff... what about the duality of energy? and what do you mean exactly ?

[tricky]

Originally Posted by Salome

so some humans discuss how God would feel and what would do? thats too bold dont you think?


well its just because I do stupid and meaningless things trapped in the 3rd dimension...when is the next train to the 7th dimension?

yeah and I was referring to the duality of energy

if you believe in God, then God gave us a brain to use it and an imagination so that we will never run out of ideas and possiblities... if god didnt want us to think he wouldnt bother giving us a brain, so i dont think it's bold...



dont we all ^_^



hmm duality of energy do you mean "Ying" & "Yang"? not sure if i spelled it correct and stuff... what about the duality of energy? and what do you mean exactly ?

[Ataraxia]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

Yea yea, Firstly I was not born a Muslim, My grandfather was Maronite and I was an Aethiest, Secondly "Big Bang" Is Mentionned in the Quran if you didn't know so enjoy that. And in this Quran you talk about tere are 500 clear verses which have been accepeted as scientific Facts (not theories).

Here's ur verse:
(21:30) Did the unbelievers (who do not accept the teaching of the Prophet) not realize that the heavens and the earth were one solid mass, then We tore them apart, and We made every living being out of water? Will they, then, not believe (that We created all this)?

I'm sure this was common knowlege at the time specially for those living in the desert.

I doubt.
As for the Quran verse, instead of trying to maintain this superior standpoint of yours, why don't you try to look at the verse and analyze it for a second. From one point, if I want to take into account that it was actually the big bang they were talking about, then I am sure I can find you many claims that predated Islam by far and talked about some explosion at some time in the universe. Regardless , it is useless because my second point is everyone who believes that this is connected to the big bang must have his IQ checked. So Earth and Heaven were one piece of mass and then separated. In the big bang, Earth was not created, and ( thus not heaven ?) Earth was created billions of years after. So, if you want to take a timeline, no matter what, you would be taking the timeline of the scientific "big bang" meaning the only way you can explain the timeline is by taking that for instance every two days is some few billion years, and by that you would be assuming something that was not mentioned. All that, however, only works if the Quran meant that Earth and heaven did not get created once the explosion happens and it doesn't mention anything about it.

Also how come that water was used to create every living thing ? Wasn't it clay that humans were created from ?

You say "Once something is created it is normal for someone to attribute it to something" I say Yes I attribute it to its creator, since you know that it is created Then you surely Must know that there is a creator.
Once you establish that there is a "creator" for a "created" then you want to Know about the Nature of this Creator and here you fall into a trap and mostly start to make stuff up, And this is the reason Prophets are sent with clear messages and guidance.

Yeh they were sent for that purpose, but in the process ignored billions of people before them.

Thirdly When you say that what GOD does is futile, does it not occur to you that god's wisdom is far beyond urs and that it's simply none of ur business what he does, whether he created green or blue trees or whether The earth is Flat or Spherical, You Barely Understand the creature and now you want to fully comprehend the creator.

His wisdom is far beyond us but when it is accompanied with an organized religion I can refute anything. Also I made a point and you didn't reply to it yet. Don't tell me that I cannot understand God, please. If I want to follow you and your beliefs, he gave me logic, right ? ... so if my logic is refuting him, he will be responsible and not me. So once again answer my question directly.