شهود يهوه؟

[drmaalouf]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

but i can assure you that Zarathustrians had this ideology of the "zaradesht" long time before jesus comes , there are so similar texts from both sides .. Especially the God's personifcation !!

Yes mount_amel, but as I already pointed out, the idea of Messiah, the Son of God is in the old testament...loooong before Zarathustrians. If you see similarity, then its only logical that Zaras took from Old testament!

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

Yes mount_amel, but as I already pointed out, the idea of Messiah, the Son of God is in the old testament...loooong before Zarathustrians. If you see similarity, then its only logical that Zaras took from Old testament!

The massiah is in the Zobor Holly Book , longgg before the Old testemnate !!

But no text said he will be the Son of GOD ..The Text says it clearly that he will be the Massiah a prophet with no father ..

Zarathustrians are the only people who developed the Son and God ideology ..



Salam

[drmaalouf]

I guess you know my answer here: i am afraid you are wrong :)

Some scholars say that Zarathustra (a.k.a. Zoroaster) lived around 600-500 BC. If that were the case, David, Isaiah and Jeremiah (all of whom mention the Messiah, the resurrection and the final judgment in their writings), lived and wrote before Zarathustra. Some scholars say that Zoroaster lived sometime between 1500 and 1200 BC. If that were the case, the case for Christianity borrowing from Zoroastrianism would be stronger, but the fact is we don’t know when Zarathustra lived (hence the disagreement among scholars) and so this argument is speculative at best. The Greek historian Herodotus (5th Century BC) doesn’t mention him in his treatise on the Medo-Persian religions, though Plato, who was born roughly around the time Herodotus died, does mention him in his Alcibiades.

But establishing when Zarathustra lived is only the first step.You have to establish what he actually taught (as opposed to what modern Zoroastrianism claims he taught). The only source for Zarathustra’s teachings is the Avesta, and the oldest copies we have of the Avesta date from the 13th Century AD. The late date for this collection of writings lends no support whatsoever to the idea that Christians borrowed from Zoroastrianism (the oldest copies of the Jewish Scriptures which we have today date centuries before Christ and the oldest complete manuscripts of the Christian Scriptures we have date from the 4th Century AD.

Have we any good reason not to suppose that it was Zoroastrianism which borrowed from Christianity and not vice versa? We know that Zoroastrianism borrowed freely from the polytheistic faiths of the region in which it became popular. Mithra, for example, was a Persian god who found a prominent role in Zoroastrianism. Mithra’s Hindu counterpart is the god Mitra.

And besides mount, you argument also strech to Islam. We see MANY similarity between christian doctrines and islamic doctrines, does that mean that also islam took from christian who in return took from pagans, meaning Islam taking from paganism? Seeing similarity in religions doesnt prove its righthood or falsehood.

All philosophical arguments aside, we know that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure, that He fulfilled specific prophecies written and preserved hundreds of years before His life, that He died on a cross, and that He was reported to have risen from the dead and interacted with men and women who were willing to suffer horribly and die for this testimony.

[Chrysostomos]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

And General Dave, even if Christmas date IS taken from pagan festivities, its simply a social reaction to a transforming society which relates to none of the christian doctrines. If the roman state had a holiday on the 25th, so what if the Christians gave it a whole other meaning, ridding the society of pagan symbols. Just my thought. Wether I celebrated Christmas on the 25th of december, 1st of July, etc... nothing change. Mish fer2ene ma3e :)

I don't care either but all i wanted to say that the 25th of december has a Christian origin.

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

I guess you know my answer here: i am afraid you are wrong :)

Some scholars say that Zarathustra (a.k.a. Zoroaster) lived around 600-500 BC. If that were the case, David, Isaiah and Jeremiah (all of whom mention the Messiah, the resurrection and the final judgment in their writings), lived and wrote before Zarathustra. Some scholars say that Zoroaster lived sometime between 1500 and 1200 BC. If that were the case, the case for Christianity borrowing from Zoroastrianism would be stronger, but the fact is we don’t know when Zarathustra lived (hence the disagreement among scholars) and so this argument is speculative at best. The Greek historian Herodotus (5th Century BC) doesn’t mention him in his treatise on the Medo-Persian religions, though Plato, who was born roughly around the time Herodotus died, does mention him in his Alcibiades.

But establishing when Zarathustra lived is only the first step.You have to establish what he actually taught (as opposed to what modern Zoroastrianism claims he taught). The only source for Zarathustra’s teachings is the Avesta, and the oldest copies we have of the Avesta date from the 13th Century AD. The late date for this collection of writings lends no support whatsoever to the idea that Christians borrowed from Zoroastrianism (the oldest copies of the Jewish Scriptures which we have today date centuries before Christ and the oldest complete manuscripts of the Christian Scriptures we have date from the 4th Century AD).

Have we any good reason not to suppose that it was Zoroastrianism which borrowed from Christianity and not vice versa? We know that Zoroastrianism borrowed freely from the polytheistic faiths of the region in which it became popular. Mithra, for example, was a Persian god who found a prominent role in Zoroastrianism. Mithra’s Hindu counterpart is the god Mitra.

Doc. , i think this is an endless debate here. History can be faked and subjective especially when we are debatig 2500 years incidents !
I read and dont beleive that Zarathustrian relegion was spreading during the rise of christianity in Europe and especially Rome.
The Zarathustra is not a real man , its the fiction character of thier book !!
The Old Testemante that i have at home , which is basiclly the Torah never mentions the personification of GOD !!
The revelations and the verses assures that a man will come with salvation !! The salvation could be powers from GOD given to any human bieng .. LIKE a SAINT according to the Xtian faith , and a prophet according to mine.
So its either the text was misunderstood by those wo translated it , or its the zarathustriasim which corrupted the real Xtian faith.

And besides mount, you argument also strech to Islam. We see MANY similarity between christian doctrines and islamic doctrines, does that mean that also islam took from christian who in return took from pagans, meaning Islam taking from paganism? Seeing similarity in religions doesnt prove its righthood or falsehood.

All philosophical arguments aside, we know that Jesus Christ was a real historical figure, that He fulfilled specific prophecies written and preserved hundreds of years before His life, that He died on a cross, and that He was reported to have risen from the dead and interacted with men and women who were willing to suffer horribly and die for this testimony.

Islam: Its the continuation of the Ibrahamic Relegion. This is the best definition whic describes Islam.
Islam didnt take anything from Xtians or jews , islam is the correction and the continuation of those two corrupted relegions (No offense Doc. , i had to mention this )

So according o muslims , the seal of the prophets Mohammad(saw) had received the last revelations from GOD and made everything clear to the other Ibrahimic relegions.

As for Jesus , here is verses from the quran :

وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا

فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا

قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَن مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا

قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا

قَالَتْ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا

قَالَ كَذَلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا

Maryam Sura

فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا

يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا

فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا

وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا

وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْنِي جَبَّارًا شَقِيًّا

وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا

ذَلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ

مَا كَانَ لِلَّهِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ مِن وَلَدٍ سُبْحَانَهُ إِذَا قَضَى أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ

As we can see that jesus had a special treatment from GOD , God says :

قال الله يا عيسى ابن مريم اذكر نعمتي عليك وعلى والدتك اذ ايدتك بروح القدس تكلم الناس في المهد وكهلا واذ علمتك الكتاب والحكمة والتوراة والانجيل واذ تخلق من الطين كهيئة الطير باذني فتنفخ فيها فتكون طيرا باذني وتبرئ الاكمه والابرص باذني واذ تخرج الموتى باذني واذ كففت بني اسرائيل عنك اذ جئتهم بالبينات فقال الذين كفروا منهم ان هذا الا سحر مبين

Maeda Sura

The Holy Spirit here where the Xtians says its a personfication of God is actuallay a Spirtit from God that was helping Jesus !!

And finally Doc. , this is what really matters :

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالصَّابِؤُونَ وَالنَّصَارَى مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وعَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

Maeda Sura


Salam brother ,

[drmaalouf]

Yes I know all this.

And don't worry I also know that Islam consider Christianity corrupt and I am glad to see you are honest, same as Christianity consider Islam to be corrupt.

BUT, this was not my point, discussing Islam Vs Christianity. You simply made my point stronger. Seeing similiraties in religions (like you see in Islam and Christianity, both mention Jesus, the One God, Hell, Resurrection etc...) is not a valid argument for righthood or falshood. You say Islam corrected Christianity, Christians say Islam corrupted Christianity!

So, again, similiraty is NOT a valid argument (such as the one you mentionned about Zoro Vs Christianity, although I have showed you how Zoro borrowed from Christianity and not the other way around)

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

Yes I know all this.

And don't worry I also know that Islam consider Christianity corrupt and I am glad to see you are honest, same as Christianity consider Islam to be corrupt.

BUT, this was not my point, discussing Islam Vs Christianity. You simply made my point stronger. Seeing similiraties in religions (like you see in Islam and Christianity, both mention Jesus, the One God, Hell, Resurrection etc...) is not a valid argument for righthood or falshood. You say Islam corrected Christianity, Christians say Islam corrupted Christianity!

So, again, similiraty is NOT a valid argument (such as the one you mentionned about Zoro Vs Christianity, although I have showed you how Zoro borrowed from Christianity and not the other way around)

Righthood and Falshood unfortuantly had never been under a real debate between relegions.
They all end up saying :

You have to beleive in this and that ..

Cant agree more with you , i just thought that you lack information about islam as i do actually about some of the christian faith and doctrines.
This is maybe a mis-understood from me since the first time i met you was at the "Afghani guy thread " .. I thought you were spreading some hate .. Sorry but had to say it .. :)

Salam brother ..

[drmaalouf]

Once you see me spreading hate, then I will not be a Christian anymore, only a hypocrite.

And regarding the afghan post, remember I asked for a Muslim opinion for I said ''I am not sure if Hadith is binding for Muslims. Anyone with knowledge can clarify?''. I was by no means attacking Islam.

Salam to you as well :)

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

Yes I know all this.

And don't worry I also know that Islam consider Christianity corrupt and I am glad to see you are honest, same as Christianity consider Islam to be corrupt.

BUT, this was not my point, discussing Islam Vs Christianity. You simply made my point stronger. Seeing similiraties in religions (like you see in Islam and Christianity, both mention Jesus, the One God, Hell, Resurrection etc...) is not a valid argument for righthood or falshood. You say Islam corrected Christianity, Christians say Islam corrupted Christianity!

So, again, similiraty is NOT a valid argument (such as the one you mentionned about Zoro Vs Christianity, although I have showed you how Zoro borrowed from Christianity and not the other way around)

It was assumtions.

Salam

[Renard]

You are absolutely right ... If we are good christians, me must know how to face these people because they target to end the christianism in their way of using the bible as their weapon ... And to face them, we must know how they think. Here is some tips:

مؤسس هذه البدعه هو تشارلز روصل ، من أصل يهودي ، ولد عام 1852 وتوفي عام 1916 . إنشغل في ألدراسه منذ كان عمره 16 عامًا . من أهم تعاليمه أن ألمجيئ ألثاني ليسوع المسيح قد إبتدأ عام 1874 ، وأنه هو نفسه ألنبي ألسابق . وها لكم بعض التناقضات لهذه ألبدعه :

قبل عام 1931 كانوا يعترفون بالصليب ، وبعده أنكروه .

لم يكن لديهم إي تعليق على ألتدخين ثم منعوه .

قبل عام 1945 كان نقل ألدم جائز ثم منعوه .تنبؤا عدة مرات أن نهاية ألعالم في عام 1975 ، وتنبؤا أن ألله سيقضي على الكنائس عام 1918 ، وأن ملاين ألناس لن يموتوا سنة 1920 .


لا يزال شهود يهوه يبشرون بافكار رسل الاخروية ويركزون على موضوعين: تقسيم البشر والحسابات النبوية.

-يقسم رسل البشرالى ثلاث طبقات:

1-القديسون اي تلاميذه. هؤلاء فقط سيعيشون في الفرح السماوي وعددهم 144000. ومن بينهم قلة قليلة تحظى بالطبيعة الالهية وتؤلف جسد المسيح.

2-الاخوة يخضعون لناموس الملكوت وتكون لهم حياة انسانية مثالية وعلى رأسهم صديقو العهد القديم.

3-الطبقة الثالثة مؤلفة من ذئاب متخفية بشكل خراف.هؤلاء رفضوا التبشير وسيفنون نهائياً.

يقول شهود يهوه ان مرجعنا الوحيد هو الكتاب المقدس ويرفضون تفسير الكنيسة لهذا الكتاب ويرذلون المجامع المقدسة التي اوضحت الايمان ويزعمون ان "الاكليروس الذي يسمي نفسه مسيحياً هو الذي علم الايمان بالتقاليد

تعود تسمية "شهود يهوه" بهذا الاسم الى العام 1931، وقد وردت، اول نا وردت، على لسان القاضي روذرفورد، الرئيس الثاني للمنظمة، في البيان الختامي لمؤتمر كولومبوس في اوهايو الاميريكية. قبل ذلك، ومنذ العام 1874، ارتأت الجماعة ان تطلق على نفسها، حسب الظروف، تسميات شتى ابرزها "دارسو الكتاب المقدس". راصل –مؤسس المنظمة- وروذرفورد لم يجدا عيباً في تسمية الجماعة ب "المسيحيين". روذرفورد سمّاها ايضاً "تلاميذ يسوع المسيح الحقيقيين".

And here is what the church advises us as "Real Christians" to do when meeting Chouhoud Yahwa:

* لا تستقبل شهود يهوه في بيتك اذا ما قرعوا بابك. لا تتحدث اليهم ولا تصغ الى كلامهم لا في الأوتوبيس ولا في مكان عملك ولا في مدرستك ولا في الأمكنة العامة.

* لا تَدَعهم يفتحون الكتاب المقدّس ليقرأوا عليك بعضا من آياته لأن استعمالهم للكتاب كلّه ضلال.

* لا تأخذ منهم كتبا, لا مجانا ولا بثمن. وإذا كان لديك بعض منشوراتهم فتخلّص منه او سلّمه لراعي كنيستك او لأحد الشباب النشيطين فيها.

* لا تؤخذ بمنظر الشهود, إذا ما أتوك, أو بلباقتهم أو بما يدّعونه من غيرة على خلاصك. انهم متدرّبون, كأبيهم الشيطان, على نصب الفخاخ. لا تنس " أن الشيطان نفسه يغيّر شكله الى شبه ملاك نور. فليس عظيماً إنْ كان خدامه أيضا يغيّرون شكلهم كخدّام للبرّ." ( 2 كورنثوس 11: 4 ).

* لا تستحِ منهم ولا تستقبلْهم بحجّة اللياقة واستقبال الضيف. ولا لياقةَ مع أبناء الشيطان الفاسدين المُفسدين. الشيطان يُزْجَر ويُطْرَد.

* انتبه! هَمُّ الشهود أن يبيعوكم أفكارهم. انهم كالكتبة المرائين الذين قال عنهم الرب يسوع: يطوفون البحر والبرّ ليكسبوا دخيلا واحدا, ومتى حصل يصنعونه ابنا لجهنم أكثر منهم مضاعفا ( متى 23: 15).

* لا تدخلْ معهم في حوار بشأن وضعك الشخصي أو الوضع القائم بصورة عامة. انتبه ! انهم يستغلّون نقاط الضعف عندك ليوهموك بأن قضيتك هي قضيتهم. وإذا ما شعروا بأن لك مآخذ على بعض الكهنة أو المطارنة شهّروا بكنيستك وسعوا الى تعميتك عن مواطن الأصالة فيها لتشترك معهم في نقدها وسبّها ليمرمروا نفسك حيالها ويقطعوك عنها.

* لا تؤخذ بمعرفتهم بآيات من الكتاب المقدس. انهم لا يعرفون الا ما حَفّظوهم إياه. تذكّر أنهم خضعوا لعملية غسل دماغ, وما يعرفونه زُرع في أدمغتهم كما يُزرع المعلومات في الدماغ الالكتروني. انهم رجال آليون, بائعو كلام, جرائد ومجلاتٌ ناطقة. يتعللون "بمباحثات ومماحكات الكلام التي منها يحصل الحسد والخصام والافتراء والظنون الردّية ومنازعات أناس فاسدي الذهن وعادمي الحق..... أما أنت يا انسان الله فاهرب من هذا واتبع البرّ والتقوى والإيمان والمحبة والصبر والوداعةْ" ( 2 كورنثوس 6).

* انتبه واعلم أنهم اذا عرفوا أنك فقير أعطوك مالاً, ودولاراتهم وافرة, لا سيما هذه الأيام. ولكنهم لا يعطونك نالاً لأنهم يحبّونك – فانهم لا يعلمون شيئا لوجه الله – بل لأنهم يريدون أن يستغلوا وضعك ليسميلونك اليهم, تماما كما فعل اليهود بيهوذا الإسخريوطي: أغروه بالمال حتى يسلّم لهم المحبوب الرب يسوع المسيح. هكذا يسعون الى إغرائك لتسلّم نفسك لمقاصدهم . تذكّر قول المرنم في المزمور: " أما زيت الخاطىء لا يدهن به رأسي". يُطعمونك احيانا لتستحي وتُجاريهم في مقاصدهم.

* لا تقل انا أعرف بعضّهم وهم حسنو النيّة. ليس الموضوع حُسنَ النيّة أو سوء النيّة. حامل الطاعون أيضا حسن النيّة. الموضوع هو أنهم يحملون أفكارا جرثومية ينقلونها اليك اذا لم تَحْمِ نفسك منهم.

* لا تكن فضوليا ولا تقل دعني أجرّب. الفضولية أخرجت آدم وحواء من الفردوس. والفضولية في الفساد تأسرنا للفساد.

* لا تظن أن غيرتك وحدها كافية لمواجهتهم. كن عارفا ما استطعت. خذ العلم الصحيح من ينابيعه, ودع الخبراء في فك الألغام يعملون عملهم.

* لا تكن لك علاقات اجتماعية مع أحد منهم, حتى ولو كانوا من أقربائك أو جيرانك أو زملائك في العمل. المصاب بالمرض مُعْدٍ يُفْرَزُ ويُحْجَزُ عليه.

* ولكن كن غيوراً على أخيك أو جارك اذا ما لاحظت أن الشهود يتردّدون عليه. افتح عينيك جيدا ! كل مؤمن هو حافظ لأخيه. الله يطالبنا به. لا نقولن:" يصطفل !". واذا كان جارك من غير كنيستك وكانوا يتردّدون عليه فلا تتأخر عن الاتصال براعيه.