شهود يهوه؟

[Inanna]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

Which church ??

The Catholic church !! is not the only church on earth.
They have thier own actually, good for them.
They were oppressed big time from the church you are talking about !!

Salam

the Church that i'm talking about is the Church that represents the Christians!
and as a Christian i can tell you that what they are teaching is not true! they do it to try to get the real Christian on the false track!
they were oppressed cos in the past the Church used to oppress sects! that's wrong! but all the religions used to do so in the past! some still do it nowadays in some countries!
so the thing is that those people are not Christian at all, pretend to be, read the Bible and explain like they want!

[drmaalouf]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

Which church ??

The orthodox churches meaning Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants. Meaning the big majority of churches.

To better undestand the issue mount_amel, you have to look at the Nicene Creed (325AD). At the start of Christianity, there was a need to organize the Christian doctrines since many currents were widespread. From here came the first ecumenical council (ecuminical means universal): it was the Nicene Council in 325AD. In that council, almost all of the church leaders agreed to formulate a paragrah that defines or resume the Christian faith. It is THE statement of faith of Christianity. It says

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

This statement of faith resume the essential doctrines of the bible, thus if you hold to these, you are called a ''Christian church".

Catholic, Orthodox and most Protestant accept this statement of faith. Jehovah's witness disagree with a lot of point of this faith, thus they are not Christians.

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by Inanna

the Church that i'm talking about is the Church that represents the Christians!
and as a Christian i can tell you that what they are teaching is not true! they do it to try to get the real Christian on the false track!
they were oppressed cos in the past the Church used to oppress sects! that's wrong! but all the religions used to do so in the past! some still do it nowadays in some countries!
so the thing is that those people are not Christian at all, pretend to be, read the Bible and explain like they want!

Inanna, i dont want to say anthing that might seem offensive to yur faith.
However , do you think that someone would go and preach just for the sake of decieving people !! I mean those who give time for free for wat they beleive in and practice da3wa and go homes and they are alwyas under life threat are just doing so for destroying christians !!!!
..
Your logic dosent work .. Like ziad el rahbani says : "Fee shee 7ezeb bel 3alam dod el 3adeleh el ijtema3yeh , la2 ma fee , bas kilon 3endon tor2on el khasa ""

Salam

[Chrysostomos]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

What r u talking about ??

Jehova witnesses are a christain sect.
With all due respect, Atta mikhael should be more objective ! He is calling them hetrodox !! What a shame ??
Was Jesus movement a hetrodox when he was calling for "Da3wa" among the Jews and romans ??

Salam

Dear mount_amel,plz read my post above.
Jehuva's witnesses doctrine is totally different than the Christian doctrine.
I stated some passages from the Gospels that prove the incredibility of the JWs.
The comparison was really clear between the two doctrines

By the way about the birthday and the Christmas tree. JWs believe that those two acts are taken from the Pagan's traditions.

The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.
The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in
honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life...etc

In the other hand,The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. . . . Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. . . . Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. . . . Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune.

Anyway, i don't think that the church teaches about the Christmas tree or the birthday...it's not a sin if we don't make a Christmas tree or celebrate our birthday. The birthday is a special day for everyone and the Christmas tree celebration started at Germany in the 17th century i think by some Protestant Christians.

[drmaalouf]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

you think that someone would go and preach just for the sake of decieving people

I disagree partly with Inanna here. JW are deceived people simply holding to false doctrines. I don't beleive they have a ''plan'' to destroy or deceive people. They are people like you and me, with some good some bad. They are people who hold to false doctrines thinking its correct (just like any other sect).

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

The orthodox churches meaning Catholic, Orthodox, Protestants. Meaning the big majority of churches.

To better undestand the issue mount_amel, you have to look at the Nicene Creed (325AD). At the start of Christianity, there was a need to organize the Christian doctrines since many currents were widespread. From here came the first ecumenical council (ecuminical means universal): it was the Nicene Council in 325AD. In that council, almost all of the church leaders agreed to formulate a paragrah that defines or resume the Christian faith. It is THE statement of faith of Christianity. It says

We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

This statement of faith resume the essential doctrines of the bible, thus if you hold to these, you are called a ''Christian church".

Catholic, Orthodox and most Protestant accept this statement of faith. Jehovah's witness disagree with a lot of point of this faith, thus they are not Christians.

Still Doc. , i can not catogarize those under hetrodox term , their beleive is so similar to the christians and see themselves as the correctiionist movement in the christian world !!

I have to disagree with you on the definition of GOD !According to your faith , GOD has personified himself !!
I think according to history that Zarathustriasim was spreading at that time in Europe which conflicted with the chritsian ideology and then made the Xtian fath that we know now .. (Personification and Son of God is a zarathustrian doctrine 2)

Salam

[drmaalouf]

Originally Posted by mount_amel

Still Doc. , i can not catogarize those under hetrodox term , their beleive is so similar to the christians and see themselves as the correctiionist movement in the christian world !!

So similar? Please reread the post by GeneralDave here. The first three are enough to say there is HUUGE differences.

Originally Posted by mount_amel

I have to disagree with you on the definition of GOD !According to your faith , GOD has personified himself !!

Well of course you will disagree with me mount. Because you are a Muslim, and Muslims do not believe God personified as Jesus. But this is exactly my point. JWs also don't believe that, so, JWs are as different from Christians as Muslims are different from Christians.

Originally Posted by mount_amel

I think according to history that Zarathustriasim was spreading at that time in Europe which conflicted with the chritsian ideology and then made the Xtian fath that we know now

This is a big mistake. I will not go into history of the church now but hear this:
All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the Old Testament where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus as the son of God (Zech. 12:10), born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), was crucified (Psalm 22), the blood atonement (Lev. 17:11), rose from the dead (Psalm 16:10), and salvation by faith (Hab. 2:4). Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.

As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are!

Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament. Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

So if there is similarity, its the other way around :) Pagans taking from Judeo-Christians.

[Chrysostomos]

Originally Posted by GeneralDave

I will try to summarize everyhting concerning the doctrine and principles of Jehova's Witnesses:

There are five important facts to remember about the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower Organization.
1. They have accepted the Organization as the Prophet of God.
2. They have accepted the Organization as God's sole channel for His truth.
3. They believe that to reject the Organization is to reject God.
4. They believe that only the Organization can interpret the Bible; as individuals they are unable to do so.
5. They believe the Watchtower Magazine contains God's truth, directed by Him, through the Organization.


What does the Organization and Watchtower Magazine teach that is in conflict with Orthodox Christianity?
1. That Jesus is a created being/a creature.
2. That Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel
3. That Jesus was not resurrected bodily, but as a spirit being.
4. That Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 (secretly to the Organization)
5. That Jesus was only a man when on earth, not the Word Become flesh.
6. That the Holy Spirit is only an active force, not the person of God.
7. That Hell is simply the grave.
8. That Heaven's doors is open to only 144,000.
9. That the majority of Witnesses must remain on earth.
10. That salvation is found only through the Organization.
11. That it must be maintained by energetic works for the Organization until the end when one may merit eternal life on a paradise earth.
12. That Satan is the author of the doctrine of the Trinity.
13. That Jesus cannot be given worship, but only honor as Jehovah's first creation.



The Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe or teach some of the very basic tenets of Christian doctrine. They deny:
1. The Trinity.
2. The Omnipresence of God.
3. The Deity of Christ.
4. The dual nature of Christ.
5. The bodily resurrection of Christ.
6. The visible return of Christ.
7. The person of God the Holy Spirit.
8. The Promise of Heaven to all believers.
9. The necessity of the New Birth for all believers.
10. The Lord's Supper for all believers. (only for the 144,0000).
11. The Eternal Security of the believer.
12. The conscious Eternal Punishment of the lost.


IN THE OTHER HAND


The Bible Teaches Us:
1. That God exists in a Trinity of three eternal and co-equal persons: Father (Romans 1:7), Son (John 20:28) and Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4 and I John 5:7).
2. Jesus is no less than God in human flesh (Colossians 2:9).
3. God, the Holy Spirit, is the third member of the Holy Trinity (Matt. 28:19; Acts 13:2).
4. Jesus Christ rose bodily from the grave (John 2:20,21; Luke 24:39).
5. Jesus is visibly coming again to set up His Kingdom on earth (Matt. 24:30; Acts 1:8; Rev. 1:7).
6. Salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ and comes through faith in Him. (Acts 16:31). It's the work of God for man, not a work of man for God (Titus 3:4-6).
7. Jesus was and should be worshipped (John 20:26-28; Matt. 2:10-12, 14:33)

Above is a simple comparison between both doctrines.

I wanted to add an important thing about the date of Christmas (the JW believe that this date is also taken from Pagans and many Christians do think the same).

There is a very widespread theory that Christmas began in Rome as a response to pagan festivities centering around the winter solstice, which was locally considered to be 25 December. The pagan celebration, which was first established by the Roman emperor Aurelian in AD 274, was called The Birth of the Invincible Sun. However, there is evidence that, some years earlier, Christians had made a sincere attempt to calculate the actual date of Jesus’ birthday.
In ancient Judaism, there was a common belief, which ancient Christians inherited, that the prophets of Israel died on the on the same date as their birth or conception. This may be behind the long-standing Christian custom of referring to the date of a martyr’s death as their “birthday in heaven.” According to ancient western calculations, Jesus was crucified on 25 March, so they assumed that 25 March was the date of Jesus’ conception. The Annunciation is still commemorated on that date to this day. Nine months after 25 March leads to 25 December, which would be the birthday of Jesus Christ if all those assumptions and calculations were correct. They aren’t correct, but the fact remains that the date has a Christian origin.
In AD 354, Philocalus wrote a Christian martyrology that dates the nativity of Jesus Christ on December 25, and cites an earlier work as backup. From this we can deduce that Christmas was celebrated on the present date as early as AD 335 in Rome.

[drmaalouf]

And General Dave, even if Christmas date IS taken from pagan festivities, its simply a social reaction to a transforming society which relates to none of the christian doctrines. If the roman state had a holiday on the 25th, so what if the Christians gave it a whole other meaning, ridding the society of pagan symbols. Just my thought. Wether I celebrated Christmas on the 25th of december, 1st of July, etc... nothing change. Mish fer2ene ma3e :)

[mount_amel]

Originally Posted by drmaalouf

So similar? Please reread the post by GeneralDave here. The first three are enough to say there is HUUGE differences.



Well of course you will disagree with me mount. Because you are a Muslim, and Muslims do not believe God personified as Jesus. But this is exactly my point. JWs also don't believe that, so, JWs are as different from Christians as Muslims are different from Christians.

Doc. , My whole point was that those people are seeing themseleves as a correctionist movement in the christain world. Just like muslims has many school of thoughts that contradict each others by doctrine !! The JW are the same , christians and have thier own school of thought.

This is a big mistake. I will not go into history of the church now but hear this:
All the doctrines of Christianity exists in the Old Testament where we can see the prophetic teachings of Jesus as the son of God (Zech. 12:10), born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14), was crucified (Psalm 22), the blood atonement (Lev. 17:11), rose from the dead (Psalm 16:10), and salvation by faith (Hab. 2:4). Also, the writers of the gospels were eyewitnesses (or directed by eyewitnesses as were Mark and Luke) who accurately represented the life of Christ. So, what they did was write what Jesus taught as well as record the events of His life, death, and resurrection. In other words, they recorded history, actual events and had no need of fabrication or borrowing.

As you can see, there is no need for any of the Christian writers to borrow from anything other than the Old Testament source in order to establish any Christian doctrine concerning Jesus. If the argument that pagan mythologies predated Christian teachings and therefore Christianity borrowed from them is true, then it must also be truth that the pagan religions borrowed from the Jewish religion because it is older than they are!

Given that all of the Christian themes are found in the Old Testament and the Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish ideas found in the Old Testament. Think about it, the idea of a blood sacrifice and a covering for sin is found in the first three chapters of Genesis when God covered Adam and Eve with animals skins and prophesied the coming of the Messiah.

So if there is similarity, its the other way around :) Pagans taking from Christians.

I will not g thru history too , but i can assure you that Zarathustrians had this ideology of the "zaradesht" long time before jesus comes , there are so similar texts from both sides .. Especially the God's personifcation !!

Zaradasht in Fareseh means " The son seed " , Zara and Dasht.
This means the god who will come from no father ..

Many similarities between both doctrines.

Salam