Your electoral program and the "citizenship" issue

[nofear]

Originally Posted by halayc

hi Joumana,

First I must say that your post and your activism methodical, professionally done, and all for a very just cause. I'm glad you posted on here.

I'm a feminist (which is not necessarily scary nor extremist: I'm after all a Lebanese feminist). In the tayyar. In 1989 the General Aoun brought the Lebanese woman back into the army, in 2002 tayyar published a charter that included an item on a woman's equal role in politics. In 2007 (?) the block of change and reform proposed a law creating a quota of women candidates in parliamentary elections. All these are good signs, but they don't negate the lack of knowledge in the Lebanese public, even among FPM, on women rights.

Because of your meticulous method in approaching this issue, I hope you'll somehow collaborate with FPM in elevating the public thinking regarding this and other women's rights.

A sign of that misinformation on women rights is that some members who posted here need a demographic-related reason to grant a Lebanese woman the right to pass on her citizenship to her children with a non-Lebanese husband. As it stands today, the law creates an unfair inequality between men and women. That's all the reason anyone should need to change it. Another sign of misinformation is a post saying "have the church encourage more Christian babies". This disrespect people's intellect. It's a family and a mother's own ideals and life-goals that should determine how many babies she has, not the church, or any other religious clergy. Both views reflect the practice of religious segregation as well, which is an injustice of its own.

My FPM-woman opinion is: A Lebanese women should be able to have a baby in any religion she wants, who's father is from any nationality she chooses, and be able to grant this child her Lebanese citizenship. That is because she is no less Lebanese than the men who get to grant their children a Lebanese citizenship.

halayc, I believe Ms. Gebara is addressing children's right not women's right here. I believe FPM did their lion's share in fighting for women's rights. The problem is it is FPM doing the fight which automatically demonizes the cause. If it was Iblis demanding these basic rights, then all the non-FPM parties would have embraced them with open arms.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by teshesh

very good thread joumana. thanks for this complete analysis of the subject.

The case of lebanese woman married to a foreigner is most frequent for sunnis, then shiites then christians (i read an article a while ago that the figures are around 11%, 9% and 3% respectively, i'm gonno look it up)
that means that naturalization law will benefit more muslim children than christian children.
for fascists and sectarian quacks in this country (and god knows there are many of them) this is all what they see in the case: disproportionate numbers. they don't care for the suffering, the injustice etc... they will tackle every attempt to pass this law, and won't let it see the light.

facing those quacks can't be in showing more equilibrate estimations. don't loose your power and effort searching for and producing estimations of any kind.
this cause is very just and noble, and it touches the basic human rights. the ones who don't approve it and stand for it for whatever reason they give, are nonhuman and their refusal is a shame for them.

i think that FPM should clearly endorse their support for this cause, and clearly state that they will make this law a priority, as soon as get elected.

Excellent, you really hit my point, actually when a certain sir called me from the parliament asking for the results of my study, i.e. numbers and statistics I elaborated that numbers are not the issue but rather the fact that this a God given right to a child whose mother is Lebanese without "if and but." so that is the reason why I stopped researching for numbers since I concluded as you did that this should not be the argument at all, nor should the argument be Muslim more or Christian more, nor from which country, because "all people are born equal" and Lebanon (Dr. Charles Malek in 1942) created this Universal Charta for Human Rights stating as first article that "all people are born equal." Furthermore Lebanon is member of the United Nations and the UN articles are superior to the Lebanese Constitution.

The other treaty signed by Lebanon called the CEDAW on April 21st 1997 (b) and July 24th 1996 (a), acknowledging equal rights between genders has also been signed by Lebanon but with "reservations" excluding specifically this part article 9 which allows Lebanese mothers to give their children the Lebanese citizenship which contradicts to article 7 of the Lebanese institution (Article 7 [Equality] All Lebanese are equal before the law. They equally enjoy civil and political rights and equally are bound by public obligations and duties without any distinction.) and to article 1 of the Human Rights Charta.

And those who objected and twisted the CEDAW as such are those who made the Taef and while Lebanon was under the Syrian occupation and Syria wanted Lebanon to be similar to Syria instead of evolving.

Even in the Children Rights' treaty signed in 1991 Lebanon excluded the right of a child born to a Lebanese mother to be given this right and stated instead:

B. Rights of Children to Registration, Nationality, and Protection of Identity
Lebanese law requires that a birth certificate be prepared and filed for registration within thirty days from the date of birth.[6] As to nationality, the child acquires Lebanese citizenship by being either:

- born to a Lebanese father,
- born in Lebanon and not acquiring by birth a foreign nationality, or
- born in Lebanon to unknown parents or to parents without a nationality

Hence it is Ok to give the lebanese citizenship to a child from a Lebanese Mother as long as this child has an unknown father. And it is OK to give the Lebanese citizenship to a child from a Palestinian father or other unidentified illegally living foreigners since they cannot transmit their nationality to the child (as per second part of the article: born in Lebanon and not acquiring by birth a foreign nationality). So those fearing Palestinian settlement have ommitted already their settlement or are not aware of the treaties Lebanon signed which disqualifies them from being deputies since each deputies duty is to have full knowledge about the law.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by halayc

hi Joumana,

First I must say that your post and your activism methodical, professionally done, and all for a very just cause. I'm glad you posted on here.

I'm a feminist (which is not necessarily scary nor extremist: I'm after all a Lebanese feminist). In the tayyar. In 1989 the General Aoun brought the Lebanese woman back into the army, in 2002 tayyar published a charter that included an item on a woman's equal role in politics. In 2007 (?) the block of change and reform proposed a law creating a quota of women candidates in parliamentary elections. All these are good signs, but they don't negate the lack of knowledge in the Lebanese public, even among FPM, on women rights.

Because of your meticulous method in approaching this issue, I hope you'll somehow collaborate with FPM in elevating the public thinking regarding this and other women's rights.

A sign of that misinformation on women rights is that some members who posted here need a demographic-related reason to grant a Lebanese woman the right to pass on her citizenship to her children with a non-Lebanese husband. As it stands today, the law creates an unfair inequality between men and women. That's all the reason anyone should need to change it. Another sign of misinformation is a post saying "have the church encourage more Christian babies". This disrespect people's intellect. It's a family and a mother's own ideals and life-goals that should determine how many babies she has, not the church, or any other religious clergy. Both views reflect the practice of religious segregation as well, which is an injustice of its own.

My FPM-woman opinion is: A Lebanese women should be able to have a baby in any religion she wants, who's father is from any nationality she chooses, and be able to grant this child her Lebanese citizenship. That is because she is no less Lebanese than the men who get to grant their children a Lebanese citizenship.

Right, I fully agree with you that each person has the freedom of choice and that the law is unjust thus I chose to discuss the issue on this forum especially that FPM states in its program that it vows to work for a "Just State" (Dawlat Al 7AK). However I would love to relate this issue more to a CHild's Right as it has a greater impact .

Although I am not a feminist I salute you for your engagement which is vey neccessary in this country and would love to contribute because I believe in Human Rights and Women are Human too. I realized after a very short time that in Lebanon women are unequally treated when it comes to the pension, they cannot receive it as men do nor would their children in case of their death. Also the unfair salary payment which is worldwide disease is an issue to be tackled but most of all, the issue mobbing or sexually harrassing women in jobs is a flagrant issue to be tackled. There are further issues which I would like to turn your attention to but I will leave this discussion in the framework of another thread tackling the unfair treatment toward the other 52% of the population since evidently women are more than half the Lebanese population. Thank you and all the best.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by nofear

Thank you Ms. Gebara for this interesting thread. The subject being discussed is complex enough without me making it more complicated, but here's my scenario.

I call myself a Lebanese American, though technically the truth is far from it. My mother is Lebanese, my father is Palestinian, and I was born in the US and lived and grew up in Lebanon. Here's the kick, my parents' marriage is not registered in Lebanon (they got married here in the US before they returned to Lebanon), so formally, my parents are both listed as single. I automatically got the American citizenship because I was born in the US. When we lived in Lebanon, my father couldn't register me as a Palestinian because Palestinians are refugees but since I have another citizenship (US), then technically I am not a refugee and cannot receive refugee status. All was fine because I was living in Lebanon on a 'carte de sejour' or Iqami until I hit 18. At that point I had to either go to a private university or leave the country. The second option was really an option. Where do I go? My family and relatives all live in Lebanon on both sides of the family. It was either live illegally in Lebanon or go live the remnants of my father's family in Israel (which again was an extreme option!). I ended up going to university in Lebanon but the eventual thing happened and I graduated. Now what? Stay illegally or leave? I opted to stay illegally until I eventually decided I had enough of this **** and decided to go to America. After all, everybody I know was dying to leave and I was dying to stay. It didn't make any sense at all! After buying my ticket and after I packed my bags and left, I was turned back at Beirut International Airport because I didn't have a legal presence in Lebanon and I cannot leave until I fix. WHAT A PICKLE!!

Anyway, my father intervened with the help of the Syrian mukhabarat and I managed to leave a week later. Now I get a three-week visa from the Lebanese embassy before I go to Lebanon and try not to stay a day longer than I have to.

It doesn't bother me now as much as it did in the past, however, the thing that kills me most is the hurt I see in my wife's eyes. It seems very unfair to her that her son will never hold a Lebanese passport that belongs to him because she lacks a basic right as a woman.

After many arguments with Aouniyyi here where I live, and have to admit that I have been very disappointed at their personal beliefs that I see contradicts with Tayyar's ideology. Many seem to accept nationalizing Palestinian, Syrian and Iraqi christians. It bothers me to see this (and for the record I am a Christian) because it just make hypocrits out of those who claim otherwise.

Replying to you requires the greatest effort as you hit on my weakest point, the issue "suffering from this unjustice". I really know excatly what you are saying, sometimes I developed hate to a Lebanon I loved more than my life because of this unjustice. I cried and shouted and couldnt understand that the government would treat me as such after all the sacrifice I did for my country (well, this is at least what I feel, I feel I worked a lot for Lebanon and do not deserve to be treated as such). Maybe others gave more, but I gave all I had, every minute every second I drove through Europe depriving my kids from new clothes or vacations or toys just to go participate to this or that demonstration against the Syrian occupation thousands of miles away. I wrote, fought, thought, did everything I could do for lebanon then this shock. ..

I stood at the Amn el aam and the Syrian in front of me did not even have to pay the residency, the Srilanke had to pay 300$ and then after standing for hours between foreigners from Syria to pakistan my turn came and the guy said: ok 1200$ for your daughter, the boys each 200$ oh and you cannot have a residency on passports with such a short validity you must first do this and that (sending me to a notar, embassy, notar, embassy) I hated the world and pay here and there and $$$$$$$$$4 just spent for nothing and nothing... and I was swearing and cursing and couldnt understand why!

Then I found out I cannot ensure the kids under 1200$ per year... then found out my children are simply complete foreigners... they are not the cedars I gave birth to, they are just some creatures deprived from any right... same shocks at ministry of education, at social security... then I found out i can never inherit my kids that small house bil day3a, then I found out that I need a load of papers... then I found out just like you did when I forgot renewing the visa for my daughter that she cannot leave the country... I had paid for that ticket so that she can leave 2500$ for which I saved over months, then at the airport she was unable to leave... well I was luckier than you, i called liwa2 Ashraf Riffi at 12:14 am, yup, middle in the night, this guy I consider him a saint, he resolved the issue within 5 minutes and my daughter left, she swore she will never come back to this country.

So you see, i know what you felt every moment of your life and I do not know if other readers will ever understand if they have never lived this life of being a second degree citizen... but this has to have an end... I cannot bear it anymore, i will fight till death for this issue and thats one reason why I would never vote for Kataeb or Murr or others after what I personally witnessed from them, such uncruel creatures do not deserve to rule over a population in urgent need of being treated as human beings!

[Joumana Gebara]

I appeal to FPM and its allies to vow that in the first parliamentary meeting after the elections that the issue will debated and agreed upon. It is not acceotable to play with people's lives. We are Lebanese, yes we are Lebanese mothers, who give birth to children for this nation, and enrich it with academic children sharing diverse cultures and languages. Lebanon represents all civilizations and cultures, we are the lighthouse of this Middle East. Stop our suffering and the suffering of our children treated as second degree citizens, they should not bear the mistakes done since Bechara Al Khoury and Riad El Solh. Nor can we mothers bear to carry responsibility for those who brought all kind of foreign armies to this countries.
Thousands and thousands of foreigners (even enemies of this nation) were accredited the citizenship and we are deprived from being treated as citizens of this country.
Lebanese men marry all kind of foreign women and this is beautiful we never required not giving those children the citizenship as half Lebanese.
All what we are asking for is to give us our natural right. Yes it is only natural like Mother Nature, that we bearer of birth to be privilidged like all citizens.

Beirut Oum el Chara2e3, mich baya, Mother of Law, Justizia was a woman, FPM talks about Justizia, support us in our appeal and give us our right, not more not less.

[spacecreature]

Ok I know we like to play all modern and humane and all that, but the truth is we live in lebanon and whether u like it or not most people are still a bit susceptible to religious distributions and percentages (and you cannot blame them, especially since this fear is fed daily by the media and political speeches). The number issue comes from the subconscience fear that when muslims become the mass majority, they will somehow interfere with the christians' way of life (or so they beleive) . I understand you are looking at this from a human rights point of view but u cannot simply disregard this fear. I think this problem would become much easier once we instore a civil state where regardless of our religion we are treated equally as lebanese.

Now about the palestinian issue. What would be your stand if they passed a law by which all lebanese mothers can give their children the lebanese citizenship, EXCEPT Palestinian mothers? Would you consider this as an improvement or would you go on pressuring to include palestinians also? AN THIS IS NOT A RACIST THING like some people keep saying.This is a national patriotic issue. Otherwise lets remove all the barriers and borders between countries and live happily ever after. I for one wouldn't mind.

[Joumana Gebara]

Since this forum is read by loyalists, CIA, Hizbullah, foreign countries, l 2roud l soud! and whomever one can imagine, I will tell you those two words:

If this law is not passed IMMEDIATELY after the election, I will disclose all your secrets, everything you never imagined would come to public, will be public in 10 languages, let all the world know every detail about each and every Za3im or deputy in this country. It seems this is the only language you understand, you treat people as such and now I Joumana Gebara will treat you the way I have been treated.

Afdalkon ma tkhaloune efda7kon, afdal elkon dal sekte. Bass akid mich 3a kil shi ra7 dal sekte, karamet l ness mana le3be bi idaykon!

PS: This message is not for FPM .

[Orange Patriot]

Originally Posted by Joumana Gebara

...then at the airport she was unable to leave... well I was luckier than you, i called liwa2 Ashraf Riffi at 12:14 am, yup, middle in the night, this guy I consider him a saint, he resolved the issue within 5 minutes and my daughter left, she swore she will never come back to this country.

I dont mean to reduce the whole issue to this [i sympathize with your problem completely] buti just want to highlight that the way your problem was solved is exactly one of the main problems with this country: clientelism.

They have destroyed all institutions to the point where you, me, and others have to rely on such things just go get along with our lives whatever our respective problems maybe.

It brings our opinions of certain figures into conflict, such as ashraf riffi, michel murr, etc.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by Orange Patriot

I dont mean to reduce the whole issue to this [i sympathize with your problem completely] buti just want to highlight that the way your problem was solved is exactly one of the main problems with this country: clientelism.

They have destroyed all institutions to the point where you, me, and others have to rely on such things just go get along with our lives whatever our respective problems maybe.

It brings our opinions of certain figures into conflict, such as ashraf riffi, michel murr, etc.

You are so right ya Orange. Enta mfakar ana kint mabsouta erba7 jmilet flen w flayten ta ekhod 7a2e? You think I am exploding la2an karamte mana mad3ouse? Ana ensene msa2afe, karamte mad3ouse, metdara esh7ad 7a2e... ana berfod heyk et3emal.. bas ma ra7 enkerlo jmilo lal liwe2, ken fi ma yse3edne, mane senye... but when he knew I am a journalist he immediately helped me... fehmak kfeye...

You are right ya Orange, you are right, badna dawlet 7a2 w ma badna yehon hol kelon w ma7soubyeton wel clikentelism... bas ana mich ma7soune 3a 7ada... ana ma b7eb gheyr wlede li hal dawle m3emleton adrab min adrab ajnabe... 3ayb... mich heyk lezem net3emal ... ma fi mouzahara ma 7aramet wlede kirmel ta rou7 3laya w elon ma3lesh bokra byet7arar lebnen w mnerja3 men3ish bi karametna bi hal balad... ma nhar ma t3azbna fi min wa2t ma rje3na... berfod hal shi berfdo w ra7 2ewem, hayda 7a2e mitl ma 7a2o el lebnene yerfod tadakhol sourya aw yerfod 2asef isra2il, hayda 7a2e w ma ra7 yemro2 nhar ma taleb fi!

byekfe 3azeb w ydaf3ouna taman akhta2 pierre gemayel w chamoun w bechara w riad w al assad w l husseini w ma ba3ref min.,.. kellon 2abado mleyin 3al folostine, kellon 2a3ado bi 2a7dan l s3oudye bil 1940, killon abada, kellon mwasa2, ma bye2dro yhino 2edretna l fekrye...

michen heyk bed3e el lebnene ysawet lal teghyir... shilouwon, zhe2na min wjouh l 2erheb... chilouwon w khalouna n3ish...

PS: we7yet wlede befhamo lal general aoun wa2ta byenshor 3ardon, hol ma byefhamo bi gheyr tari2a, bykhalo l ensen yetla3 min tyebo... bisir y3azbou y3azbou w yhino w metwa23in eno l ensen ydal diplomece w mhazab... eh wallah bital3o lwa7ad min tyebo... be3tezer bas li 3am yekol l 3osse mich mitl li 3am bi3edon!

[kryptos]

Originally Posted by spacecreature

Ok I know we like to play all modern and humane and all that, but the truth is we live in lebanon and whether u like it or not most people are still a bit susceptible to religious distributions and percentages (and you cannot blame them, especially since this fear is fed daily by the media and political speeches). The number issue comes from the subconscience fear that when muslims become the mass majority, they will somehow interfere with the christians' way of life (or so they beleive) . I understand you are looking at this from a human rights point of view but u cannot simply disregard this fear. I think this problem would become much easier once we instore a civil state where regardless of our religion we are treated equally as lebanese.

Now about the palestinian issue. What would be your stand if they passed a law by which all lebanese mothers can give their children the lebanese citizenship, EXCEPT Palestinian mothers? Would you consider this as an improvement or would you go on pressuring to include palestinians also? AN THIS IS NOT A RACIST THING like some people keep saying.This is a national patriotic issue. Otherwise lets remove all the barriers and borders between countries and live happily ever after. I for one wouldn't mind.

Chou khass el "palestinian mothers" bi hayda el thread!!!!!