Your electoral program and the "citizenship" issue

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by punkgirlie16

1. it is kind of interesting that the fm representative panicked. maybe out of fear that this was a trap?

2. the tawtin issue is not an allowed argument in this since it is makes no sense why lebanese fathers can have lebanese children with palestinian women but not the other way round. this is not so much racism by the way but sexism, a far as i see.

3. the demographic numbers for 2080 are greatly inflated. there is something that deeply strikes me as racist in the assumption that muslim families and women per se have and always will have more children than non-muslims. that is in fact part of a common anti-muslim stereotype which will, if tolerated, always be used to create anti-muslim hysteria. in fact if you look at how the birth rate in iran for example you will see that although after the islamic revolution there was at first a baby boom, caused by a massive trend towards religion and also by better social conditions for the under classes; but this effect was countered and arguably reversed by the growing equality between the sexes achieved by (guess what) the islamic republic.

4. now need for propaganda for more christian birthes: no need for hysteria about a demographic muslim menace: fight unequality and underdevelopement and empower the individuals against the families, and you need not even worry how the demographics would be by 2080 or 3276.

(5. this whole reminds me of how the israelis discuss demografics.)

1- I cannot speculate but only assert facts. Whether the FM deputy considered it as a trap or whether he is honest, i cannot say, however one is clear the FM will oppose this law.

2- Thank you and you are completely right.

3- Statistics as I mentioned before are based on ceteris paribus and not some speculations. If things continue under the current factors then the digits are correct otherwise please read what I wrote above to dodzi (a member)

4- Right, fear is not fought this way, but through modernization and education, through nationhood and equality.

5- Right, the fascists and theocrats always argue from a certain point view (the religious one), what annoys me however is that they claim that they are seeking to build a CIVIL NATION, empty slogans like Kataeb.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by TTT1

Joumana,

I really appreciate that you opened this thread here.
At least this is the kind of debate we need to have during election times. Unfortunately, all is centered around sterile subjects such as the presidency or HA arms. All talk shows, all meetings,.,....
FPM MPs and candidates would love to talk about those subjects but unfortunately, every time they are on TV, they have to reply to the same old questions about HA, May 7, Pdt Sleiman....
We need so much to cover subjects such as yours, such as the healthcare system, economy, environment,....
Amazing how much no one focuses on those issues (and I am not blaming FPMers as they have always to reply to the attacks to others) and we are in election times!
Anyway, I will compile all the information that you have put here and will try to research it thoroughly and come back to you.

Thank you

Thank you too, and i hope I will be having definite replies from FPM officials as well as C&R bloc before the 7th of June in order to be able to adequately vote.

[ecce homo]

Hi Joumana

Have you considered that this could be a major issue about women rights in the Lebanese society and not about demographics?

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by spacecreature

Ok just for the sake of argument.
Imagine for a sec (I frankly don't think it's too far fetched but anyway) that there is a plan to conspire for tawtin. Would it be too hard say to remunerate palestinians if they don't return to Israel/Palestine, and encourage them to bribe women into marriages? I mean haven't you ever heard of people getting arranged marriages in the west just for the sake of a green card or citizenships? An given our "flourishing" economy, don't you think more and more people would be tempted? But I agree with the sexist part of this not being applied right now to Palestinian women. Plus who says the kids are really from the lebanese father anyway:)

Sure it can be abused but this can be put under control. Moreover why those who were nationalized and do not even have Lebanese blood are not being made accountable? Why do Lebanese mothers always have to pay the price for mistakes done by others? Ask those who brought the Palestinians, do not ask me. I am not so short visioned. Now they want to load on our shoulders all the mess they did, oh well, to hell with them.

Originally Posted by ecce homo

Hi Joumana

Have you considered that this could be a major issue about women rights in the Lebanese society and not about demographics?

No this is not a woman right, this is a CHILD's RIGHT and a LEBANESE RIGHT (in this case it is about the Lebanese MOTHER). I hate feminists because I saw what they did to Europe. Extremism induces extremism, afterwards we will have some racial men movement. Anyway it was not me who talked about demographics, I only stated the facts and given I received from my interviews. This was to highlight to you what kind of deputies Lebanese are voting for.

Originally Posted by roch10452

Dear Joumana Gebara

I am not FPM, you can see that from my avatar I guess...

I took the opportunity to reply to you because I found very weird the response you get from the 14March parties

1- FM: If FM are working for tawtin then it would have been normal for them to ask the citizenship for the palestinian children from a lebanese mother
2- LF: LF minister in the justice department, Najjar, was actually the head of the organisation working for the rights of lebanese women to give citezenship for their children! He is also pushing such changes in the actual laws in lebanon.
2- Kataeb: I can tell you from what I know inside the party, we have no problem of any lebanse women giving citizenship for her palestinian children... We care more about women equal rights in lebanon, then about the fear of tawtin. The women in the kataeb party have a HUGE say in our politics and they changed many things in the past specialy the women right to vote in the 50s. No one dared to say no the Genevieve Gemayel! She was the first woman in the arab world to drive a car, fly a plane...

As for the fear of demographic problems, its not the women's and children's fault, they shouldnt be the ones fixing the problem!!

I am so grateful that specifically you replied as a supporter or member if Kataeb. Well, you will be so surprised that you are completely misinformed. Kataeb are completely against the law and I have witnesses to what i am saying as well as records and files. Can you imagine that those who brought the palestinians to Lebanon, the Syrian to lebanon, the israeli to lebanon, the Amerikan and God knows what else, wants the Lebanese Mothers to pay for their mistakes and all the mess they did?

I vow here, and in public that JOSEPH ABOU KHALIL objected the issue even when I was begging (yes begging) him to reconsider. Same goes to Pierre allah yer7amo. Amin Gemayel was the lawyer of the Palestinians, he defended them while Lebanese youths were dying, he told me that I should not ask for this law because it is "dangerous". The kataeb are disfiguring me, defaming with worse methods and just because I am asking for my natural right. Werent the kataeb who two years ago shaked hands in a great conference with the palestinians? Now I represent danger b ut the Palestinians dont? Hypocrites.

About Minister Najjar, as far as I know, (and I admit I never met him), I was told that he is a good man and sensibilized about those issues, but the one who worked for it is in reality Minister Ziyad Baroud whom I fully respect and accredit the whole work.

Originally Posted by The Jade

I don't see how the numbers game should have any impact on this decision !

This is a basic right for every lebanese citizen may it be a man or a woman.

Joumana, you're doing a great job, I suppose Kanaan and Nicolas already answered your question.
Unfortunately no member could give you an official answer here, but I wouldn't have a problem if an FPM official answers us through this forum about the issue.

Thank you, thats exactly what i am saying.

[ecce homo]

Originally Posted by Joumana Gebara

No this is not a woman right, this is a CHILD's RIGHT and a LEBANESE RIGHT (in this case it is about the Lebanese MOTHER). I hate feminists because I saw what they did to Europe. Extremism induces extremism, afterwards we will have some racial men movement. Anyway it was not me who talked about demographics, I only stated the facts and given I received from my interviews. This was to highlight to you what kind of deputies Lebanese are voting for.

Yes it's about women rights and the child rights (in the Lebanese society as I wrote). This has nothing to do about feminism.

What happens if I have only daughters? Why wouldn't they have in the future the same rights as if I had a son, if they marry a non-Lebanese and have children. Wouldn't they be allowed to register their children’s as Lebanese? Must I force my daughters to marry a Lebanese?

I know that it wasn't you started the talk about demographics but I think that by those who gave you this reason are not frank about it.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by ecce homo

Yes it's about women rights and the child rights (in the Lebanese society as I wrote). This has nothing to do about feminism.

What happens if I have only daughters? Why wouldn't they have in the future the same rights as if I had a son, if they marry a non-Lebanese and have children. Wouldn't they be allowed to register their children’s as Lebanese? Must I force my daughters to marry a Lebanese?

I know that it wasn't you started the talk about demographics but I think that by those who gave you this reason are not frank about it.

I got your point, however I want MEN as well as WOMEN to support this natural right that is why I am not talking from a woman's right perspective, it will ruin the whole thing after I met some Lebanese feminist who categorized it under a woman's right w bsara7a hashaloune, eh akid badon yehshal kamen l rejel. They were saying something like: khaliyon yzi7o hal rjel 3a janab etc. Well this is not what I want, I only want my children and every child to be equally treated. I insist again that this is a Child's right, his right to have a Lebanese citizenship, his right to be treated as a Lebanese loyal to this country, enriching it with other cultures and languages, bringing dynamic in the society, innovation and good features. A child is tomorrow's community, and my child is just as lebanese (maybe he doesnt look like one) but in his heart he adores Lebanon as just any other does. At least my children do not differentiate between Christian and Muslim, do not differentiate between Aounist and Geageist, they just love Lebanon, they love Mankoushe and Lahm Bhajin, they do not throw dirt from the car, they preserve the environment, they love animals and defend their rights while lebanese treat Lebanese worse than animals.
This is a child's right born to a Lebanese mother to be treated just like a child born to a foreign mother and Lebanese father, or Lebanese parents. Nothing more or less....

[orange infection]

Originally Posted by vicking

My views :

1/ Politics & Church MUST ask Christian to have more children with incentives. Arafat launched "La Guerre du Ventre" in the 70's with each familly having a lot of children as a resistant act.

while the religous figures are getting wealthier every day ppl are getting even more poor , and since religious figures are loosing chrisitan's respect day after day , ma be3teber eno anyone will listen to them , la in politics wala in populating

[teshesh]

very good thread joumana. thanks for this complete analysis of the subject.

The case of lebanese woman married to a foreigner is most frequent for sunnis, then shiites then christians (i read an article a while ago that the figures are around 11%, 9% and 3% respectively, i'm gonno look it up)
that means that naturalization law will benefit more muslim children than christian children.
for fascists and sectarian quacks in this country (and god knows there are many of them) this is all what they see in the case: disproportionate numbers. they don't care for the suffering, the injustice etc... they will tackle every attempt to pass this law, and won't let it see the light.

facing those quacks can't be in showing more equilibrate estimations. don't loose your power and effort searching for and producing estimations of any kind.
this cause is very just and noble, and it touches the basic human rights. the ones who don't approve it and stand for it for whatever reason they give, are nonhuman and their refusal is a shame for them.

i think that FPM should clearly endorse their support for this cause, and clearly state that they will make this law a priority, as soon as get elected.

[halayc]

hi Joumana,

First I must say that your post and your activism methodical, professionally done, and all for a very just cause. I'm glad you posted on here.

I'm a feminist (which is not necessarily scary nor extremist: I'm after all a Lebanese feminist). In the tayyar. In 1989 the General Aoun brought the Lebanese woman back into the army, in 2002 tayyar published a charter that included an item on a woman's equal role in politics. In 2007 (?) the block of change and reform proposed a law creating a quota of women candidates in parliamentary elections. All these are good signs, but they don't negate the lack of knowledge in the Lebanese public, even among FPM, on women rights.

Because of your meticulous method in approaching this issue, I hope you'll somehow collaborate with FPM in elevating the public thinking regarding this and other women's rights.

A sign of that misinformation on women rights is that some members who posted here need a demographic-related reason to grant a Lebanese woman the right to pass on her citizenship to her children with a non-Lebanese husband. As it stands today, the law creates an unfair inequality between men and women. That's all the reason anyone should need to change it. Another sign of misinformation is a post saying "have the church encourage more Christian babies". This disrespect people's intellect. It's a family and a mother's own ideals and life-goals that should determine how many babies she has, not the church, or any other religious clergy. Both views reflect the practice of religious segregation as well, which is an injustice of its own.

My FPM-woman opinion is: A Lebanese women should be able to have a baby in any religion she wants, who's father is from any nationality she chooses, and be able to grant this child her Lebanese citizenship. That is because she is no less Lebanese than the men who get to grant their children a Lebanese citizenship.

[nofear]

Thank you Ms. Gebara for this interesting thread. The subject being discussed is complex enough without me making it more complicated, but here's my scenario.

I call myself a Lebanese American, though technically the truth is far from it. My mother is Lebanese, my father is Palestinian, and I was born in the US and lived and grew up in Lebanon. Here's the kick, my parents' marriage is not registered in Lebanon (they got married here in the US before they returned to Lebanon), so formally, my parents are both listed as single. I automatically got the American citizenship because I was born in the US. When we lived in Lebanon, my father couldn't register me as a Palestinian because Palestinians are refugees but since I have another citizenship (US), then technically I am not a refugee and cannot receive refugee status. All was fine because I was living in Lebanon on a 'carte de sejour' or Iqami until I hit 18. At that point I had to either go to a private university or leave the country. The second option was really an option. Where do I go? My family and relatives all live in Lebanon on both sides of the family. It was either live illegally in Lebanon or go live the remnants of my father's family in Israel (which again was an extreme option!). I ended up going to university in Lebanon but the eventual thing happened and I graduated. Now what? Stay illegally or leave? I opted to stay illegally until I eventually decided I had enough of this **** and decided to go to America. After all, everybody I know was dying to leave and I was dying to stay. It didn't make any sense at all! After buying my ticket and after I packed my bags and left, I was turned back at Beirut International Airport because I didn't have a legal presence in Lebanon and I cannot leave until I fix. WHAT A PICKLE!!

Anyway, my father intervened with the help of the Syrian mukhabarat and I managed to leave a week later. Now I get a three-week visa from the Lebanese embassy before I go to Lebanon and try not to stay a day longer than I have to.

It doesn't bother me now as much as it did in the past, however, the thing that kills me most is the hurt I see in my wife's eyes. It seems very unfair to her that her son will never hold a Lebanese passport that belongs to him because she lacks a basic right as a woman.

After many arguments with Aouniyyi here where I live, and have to admit that I have been very disappointed at their personal beliefs that I see contradicts with Tayyar's ideology. Many seem to accept nationalizing Palestinian, Syrian and Iraqi christians. It bothers me to see this (and for the record I am a Christian) because it just make hypocrits out of those who claim otherwise.