Your electoral program and the "citizenship" issue

[spacecreature]

Originally Posted by johnnyFPM

They are scared that palestinian men from refugee camps will marry lebanese women and have children that will be lebanese if the law is adopted (facilitating tawtin). My question is: how much lebanese women out there are gonna marry palestinian men? 1000, 2000, maybe? How will this affect demographics! It's not like all women are gonna start massively marrying palestinians, enno come on! If it was the case, they would already have done it.

Ok just for the sake of argument.
Imagine for a sec (I frankly don't think it's too far fetched but anyway) that there is a plan to conspire for tawtin. Would it be too hard say to remunerate palestinians if they don't return to Israel/Palestine, and encourage them to bribe women into marriages? I mean haven't you ever heard of people getting arranged marriages in the west just for the sake of a green card or citizenships? An given our "flourishing" economy, don't you think more and more people would be tempted? But I agree with the sexist part of this not being applied right now to Palestinian women. Plus who says the kids are really from the lebanese father anyway:)

[johnnyFPM]

Originally Posted by spacecreature

Ok just for the sake of argument.
Imagine for a sec (I frankly don't think it's too far fetched but anyway) that there is a plan to conspire for tawtin. Would it be too hard say to remunerate palestinians if they don't return to Israel/Palestine, and encourage them to bribe women into marriages? I mean haven't you ever heard of people getting arranged marriages in the west just for the sake of a green card or citizenships? An given our "flourishing" economy, don't you think more and more people would be tempted? But I agree with the sexist part of this not being applied right now to Palestinian women. Plus who says the kids are really from the lebanese father anyway:)

Are our women that easily bribed? I don't think so!
Even if it was the case, how many women will they be able to bribe? Come on, it's marriage and kids we're talking about, not an electoral vote!

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by vicking

My views :

1/ Politics & Church MUST ask Christian to have more children with incentives. Arafat launched "La Guerre du Ventre" in the 70's with each familly having a lot of children as a resistant act.

We must do this

2/ Give citizenship to Iraqi Christian who wants to be Lebanese. Maintain a policy for 50/50 which mean that the State will balance citizenships between Christian & Muslims in order that the total population is 50/50


If nothing works and we see impossible to stop our decrease, then it is better to partition otherwise we would end like all other arab countries.

Anyway we have the power to take any decision today. Let's now invest in unity and see what these 4 years will bring us, if only negative, then better to divorce.

This thread is dedicated to FPMers not to some fascists living in the 15th century. I assume you will stay stuck in that age if you continue consuming your daily dosis of brainwashing by LF and Kataeb especially.

This is not how Lebanon can solve its problems, nor is it appropriate to talk as such when you one the one side claim to want to have a civil nation and on the other side your allies are Muslim.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by Dark Angel

Dear Joumana,

I don’t think people will endorse or refute the naturalization act of descendents of Lebanese mothers without having an accurate idea about the numbers involved. How many of these cases exist in Lebanon? I don’t believe the numbers are galactic. But can you provide these numbers? If the range is below 10000 cases then I see no reason why this law should be refuted; the impact it will have on demographics is rather negligible.

Even if it wasn’t possible to go through with a full fledged naturalization, the least that could be done is to wave the fee that these children have to pay, you mentioned that it was $200 for minors and $1200 for adults, and considering the situation of most of these families, I doubt they can afford these payments.

I suggest you ready your statistics, and then try to work in parallel for both the citizenship right and for waving these ridiculous fees; you may be surprised as to how much support you can gather if you ring the right chimes; from a humanitarian perspective this nonsense cannot be allowed to proceed regardless of who wins the upcoming elections.

I already stated that (1) there are not relevant studies, (2) the speculated figures say around 3.500 children.
Further, I stress again that the problem is not only the fees, the major problem is reintegrating children in a society treating them as second degree citizens while most parties require from the Lebanese in the diasprora to be active in the Lebanon's political life, are they addressing only half of the Lebanese?

Moreover, this subject has been politicized although it should not be politicized, because obviously those who did the mess and brought Palestinians, Syrians and Israeli into Lebanon are the ones to carry responsibility for their deeds and not the Lebanese woman.


Anyway thank you for the valuable contribution and your human support, at least this indicates that there still are some Lebanese with a human sensibilization.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by johnnyFPM

OK let's not drive the thread away from it's orignal topic which was giving citizenship to children of lebanese mom and foreign parent.

I totally encourage this law. The politicians who refuse it do so because of the Palestinian issue. Yet none of them has explained how much the palestinian / lebanese weddings will affect demographics?

They are scared that palestinian men from refugee camps will marry lebanese women and have children that will be lebanese if the law is adopted (facilitating tawtin). My question is: how much lebanese women out there are gonna marry palestinian men? 1000, 2000, maybe? How will this affect demographics! It's not like all women are gonna start massively marrying palestinians, enno come on! If it was the case, they would already have done it.

Besides, even if lebanese women marry palestinian, won't these children be born and raised in Lebanon, and thus be Lebanese (or at least half lebanese) ?

If the fear is that high, such effects can be countered with Abi Nasr and Nicholas proposals:
- link this issue to the lost citizenship of emigrants and voting right abroad
- grant citizenship provided the husband's country does the same (very good idea in my opinion!)

However, i believe making a law that will grant citizenship to children from lebanese women except if the father is palestinian far too "racist" and not politically correct (in this sense, I'm not surprised it's PSP thugs who suggested this idea).

In the meantime, i think that kids of Lebanes women can at least be granted some basic rights (social security or inheritance rights). After all, they are half lebanese!

Thank you, but are you guys informed on OFFICIAL stands of FPM?

[roch10452]

Dear Joumana Gebara

I am not FPM, you can see that from my avatar I guess...

I took the opportunity to reply to you because I found very weird the response you get from the 14March parties

1- FM: If FM are working for tawtin then it would have been normal for them to ask the citizenship for the palestinian children from a lebanese mother
2- LF: LF minister in the justice department, Najjar, was actually the head of the organisation working for the rights of lebanese women to give citezenship for their children! He is also pushing such changes in the actual laws in lebanon.
2- Kataeb: I can tell you from what I know inside the party, we have no problem of any lebanse women giving citizenship for her palestinian children... We care more about women equal rights in lebanon, then about the fear of tawtin. The women in the kataeb party have a HUGE say in our politics and they changed many things in the past specialy the women right to vote in the 50s. No one dared to say no the Genevieve Gemayel! She was the first woman in the arab world to drive a car, fly a plane...

As for the fear of demographic problems, its not the women's and children's fault, they shouldnt be the ones fixing the problem!!

[The Jade]

I don't see how the numbers game should have any impact on this decision !

This is a basic right for every lebanese citizen may it be a man or a woman.

Joumana, you're doing a great job, I suppose Kanaan and Nicolas already answered your question.
Unfortunately no member could give you an official answer here, but I wouldn't have a problem if an FPM official answers us through this forum about the issue.

[dodzi]

Gilberte Zouein: Chaque enfant né d’une mère libanaise a le droit d’obtenir la nationalité libanaise
30 janvier 2009

Source

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by General mon General

To be perfectly honest, I've always been ashamed that our country has such a policy. It is seriously embarassing, even more so when you have to explain it to a foreigner. That children of such women should recieve the nationality is an absolute must, regardless of sect or nationality of the husband. We have too many challenges to overcome in this country, they are loaded with decades of archaic mentality and chauvinism.

Come May 8th, and I hope we begin the process of change. Hopes are high, but nothing comes for free.

Joumana, I commend you on your efforts! And I have no doubt FPM will tackle the issue positively.

Cheers!!

Thank you for your support and i agree that it is ashaming that half of the population is treated as such.

[Joumana Gebara]

Originally Posted by dodzi

It is strange. I read an article in which Gilberte Zouein supported the right of Lebanese mothers and wives to give the nationality... Could you tell us when you interviewed her on the subject?

As for the statistics (and previsions), it is kind of strange that by 2081 Muslims will make up 80% of the population... And we're not even counting the Druze!

While I do understand that Muslims will make up a very large number of inhabitants in Lebanon, I doubt that 80% is a serious number. Just as the assumption that Germany's population will drop by 20M in 30 years!

There will be a lot of immigration and emigration, whether in Lebanon or in Germany. Also, there will be a drop in the number of child per mother in Lebanon, amongst all sects. The reason: things will get pretty tough for all 12 million Lebanese to live in 10 500Km²!

Things will evolve, but it is impossible to predict in such a certain manner how exactly they will evolve!

I called Zwein one day after her arrival from Paris where she was during the July War 2006 and she told me that this issue is not subject to debate as it will lead to demographic change. I will not published Nabil Nicholas' comment when I confronted him with what Zwein said as it is not really nice. Anyway you can ask Zwein yourself how her stands were between 2006 and 2008 on this issue.

About the statistics, you are right things can change however statistics are not based on speculations but as mentioned on ceteris paribus i.e. if nothing changes. Statisticians are not allowed to take into consideration random factors, just like in the economy when you discuss inflation, demand, supply etc, you base it on ceteris paribus.

Concerning Germany, I know very well what I am talking about, I published an article in Reuters in 2006 asserting how Germany is fighting this phenomena with the 1 per thousand rate of birth by (1) financially sustaining families, monthly 250 euro for each of the first two children, 3rd 300 euro, 4th 350 euro etc, till the age of 18 (2) financial support for two years after the birth of each child in form of 600 euro monthly, (3) preserving the working office for a mother for 3 years in order to be there for her child on the one hand and in order to continue her carrier on the other hand, (4) encouraging adoption from Balkan and other countries, (5) kidnapping children from binational marriages under the cover Hague convention to ensure children which are half German do not leave the German territory, (6) encourage marriage and cohabitation giving mothers full rights as long as she gives birth.

That Zwein changed her opinion is very much welcome. Thank you for the information.