Your electoral program and the "citizenship" issue

[Joumana Gebara]

This thread is directed to FPM members only.

Dear FPMers,

You state in your program as published on your forum the following statement:

إقامة دولة المدنيّة: دولة الحق
على رغم أنّ بعض الصفات المدنيّة متوافرة حاليّاً في الدولة اللبنانيّة بموجب الدستور، إلاّ أنّها قائمة أساساً على الطائفيّة في نظامها السياسيّ والإداريّ، وعلى التشريع الدينيّ في قوانين الأحوال الشخصيّة، دون أن يكون للدولة تشريع مدنيّ خاصّ بها
إنطلاقاً من كون السلطة في لبنان تستمدّ شرعيّتَها من الشعب، ومن كون الدولة تكفل حرّيّة الإيمان والمعتقد من خلال قوانين الأحوال الشخصيّة، فإنّنا نعمل على أن تعترف الدولة أيضاً بحقّ المواطنين الراغبين في أن تكون علاقتهم بها مباشرة وليست من خلال الطوائف. أمّا دولة الحقّ التي نسعى إلى إقامتها، فالغاية منها ضبط سلوك الحاكم وأجهزة، وحماية المواطن من انحراف السلطة إلى التسلّط، ومن الاستنسابيّة الفرديّة في تطبيق القوانين واتّخاذ الأحكام والإجراءات المتعلّقة بالحياة العامّ
في المجتمع

With regard to this statement, and since I did not have the possibility to read your complete program, I request further clarification concerning the issue "citizenship" to children from a Lebanese mother.

As you may or may not know, the lebanese citizenship is given to children from a Lebanese father only. The place of birth or the residency duration do not count for a citizenship although the dollar may count as in the case of Walid Bin Talal.

My major concern, which will influence my deision on voting as a Metnist (and wll influence the other members of my family), what are the official stances of the "Change and Reform" bloc regarding this issue in case they get majority of the seats in the parliament?

An overview log of my previous results based on interviews with 82 deputies between 2006 and 2009:

- 26 July 2006 (during July War 2006) I was able to interview Deputy Nemattalah Abi Nasr (R&C bloc) and outcome was that he links this natural right with the Lebanese dispora receiving their citizenship and having the voting right abroad. Upon my objection, Abi Nasr assured that he supports the issue but with those details linked to it in order to avoid "demographic" Sunnite explosion and naturalization of the Palestinians. As an amateur in numbers I was unable to argue. Later I found out during my study that Abi Nasr is misinformed as well as the following deputies and parties, because the law would then naturalize round 3.500 children and not 3 million. To the credit of Abi Nasr goes that he had files about the issue and a pre-prepared law draft.

- 26 July 2006, Pierre Gemayel (RIP) (Kataeb) objected the issue and sent me to Joseph Abou Khalil who elaborated that this is a "dangerous" issue which will affect Lebanon's demography. I told him the Sunnite are already and since 1920 the majority and currently the leading sect in Lebanon with whom the Kataeb are allied and whom they support. The reply was still against such a law. I also told Abou Khalil that the Kataeb claim to fight for a civil nation and their behavior contrdicts their claim, but he was unable to answer my argument. Kataeb did not have neither a draft of law nor a study about the issue, their files where covered with 20 mm dust since they go back to the year 1936.

- August 2006 Gilberte Zwein (FPM) (one day after her arrival from Paris), asserts on the phone that she objects such a law as it would damage the "nation's interest". I reiterated and reminded her that (1) she is Head of an Organization for Mother and Children Rights" and (2) as a woman deputy, she should be more sensibilized toward this issue, but she refused to give her support and was blunt. She did not have any study about the issue.

- August 2006 meeting with Nabil Nicholas (FPM) in Rabieh Hotel cafeteria, assured that FPM is fully engaged pro-citizenship and pledged to put the issue to debate in the next parliament meeting.

- Solange Gemayel, Michel Murr and Pierre Gemayel object completely the issue in a parliament meeting in August 2006 (Nicholas held his word, a plus point for this deputy). Witnesses are parliament deputies and protocol. In a meeting with Nicholas he elaborated that he even proposed "al moumathale aw al mou3amala bil mithl" in order to avoid naturalizing fathers and children from countries which do not respect mothers like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Palestinians etc. but his proposal was rejected.

- August 2006 Ibrahim Kanaan (FPM) informs me over his brother in Jdeideh office that the FPM are working on the issue but it may take time.

- I confront Solange Gemayel on phone (September 2006) with the results of the parliament meeting and she boldly tells me that this issue is "dangerous" and cuts it short. I simply told her that she is unhuman and will pay dearly for her behavior.

- I try x times to call in the Amaret Shalhoub and went there x times but Murr never accepted to receive me (Between August and Noveber 2006, then again between February 2009 and May 2009).

- Ali Ammar (Hizbullah) in May 2007 assures that Hizbullah would not only support such a law and endorse it but has adopted this law. I ask if it contradicts with the Sharia but he reiterates that the sharia respects women as equal and that this is a natural right, the interview was recorded.

- Ammar Houri (FM) gets in panic when he knows the subject is citizenship, and tells me: Do you want "them' to accuse us of wanting to naturalize the Palestinians? I replied that this is a natural right and that a Lebanese Mother cannot go on paying the price of mistakes done by politicians since Bechara Al Khoury and that this issue cannot be politicized, but he refused to support the issue.

- The LF. That was a hard thing, I called about thousand times and no one was abe to tell me who is in charge for such an issue in the LF. Finally Elie Baraghid (Vice of Samir Geagea LF) clarfied that this issue has not been discussed so far but in general the LF is against it.

- Wael Abou Faour (PSP) objected the issue but was honest enough to tell me that the PSP never discussed the issue internally nor do they have any data about it. He asserted that this would lead to a Sunnite demographic explosion. I confront him with Ali Ammar's opinion and abou Faour bluntly says; Kezeb, 3am ye3temed el taqyeh ma3ik. However one year later, in March 2009 I receive a phone call from his office telling me that the PSP will support the issue however the Lebanese mothers married to Palestinians will be disregarded from this issue.

- In August 2007 I lead a citizenship campaign based on several studies. I visit the Patriarch Mar Nasrallah Sfeir and His Beatitude claims to fully support this natural right. Only one day later, the kataeb visit the Patriarch (a delegation headed by Selim El Sayegh) and tell him that this issue is "dangerous' for the nation so the Patriarch changes his mind. That same day the kataeb let me know: Ma tfarjiina souret wejik ba2a 3ala l sheshe, ente badik tekhrbe el balad". I replied; Ento li kharabto l balad, ma fi jende ajnabe ma jebtou, ma fi chab ma ba3atou 3l 7arb la ymout. Since then the kataeb lead a disfiguring campaign against me.

- In April 2009 in an interview on radio Loubnan Al Horr I had to argue with an uinformed wannabee LF lawyer who compared my demand with the "Moroccan in France asking for citizenship", I reminded the wannabee lawyer that I am more Lebanese than he is, at least, I denounced the syrian occupation and did not call it "woujoud", I spent my years fighting from the diaspora (from country to country on my own expenses, and from minister to minister on my own expenses) in order to convince them that MY COUNTRY IS OCCUPIED. The sir was not impressed and reiterated that this issue presents a danger for the country.

The log is too long but this was a short overview. Before concluding I would like to inform you about the life of a child from a Lebanese mother and a foreign father living in Lebanon.

A child over 18 years old has to pay $1.200 dollars residency per year, under 18 yrs $200. The child is deprived from any social or health security. The child is deprived from inheriting his mother and she must conclude a selling contract with her own child for the things she would like to inherit him. The child is deprived from the right of voting although he may be more attached to the country than any other child from a Lebanese father and a foreign mother living in Honolulu or Siberia.

My question again, is FPM going to OFFICIALY endorse this law in case it has the majority of the seats in the parliament?

I chose to make this public since FPM insists on being made accountable.

As you may have sensed, I will definitely not vote for Kataeb or Murr as a Metnist.

Best regards,

Joumana Gebara

University professor, journalist and published author.

[Mich©]

Hi Joumana,

Thank you for your message. Can you pls explain how this would affect the demographics?

Thank you.

[Joumana Gebara]

About 60% of the Sunnite marriages have a Palesto-Lebanese nature, however the overwhelming majority is a Lebanese man who marries a Palestinian woman and not the otherway round. Eventhough this is a fact as evident from the datas in the ministry of Interior and al Amn al Aam, some parties claim that this will affect Lebanon's demography although no party has a study about the issue.

In a study revealed by Al-Anwar the number of children which would be part of this procedure are around 3.500 children out of which 80% are Muslim. However this study is based only on registered marriages in Lebanon and does not include statistics of marriages of Lebanese with men from Western countries.

The CRTD-A which is internationally funded is trying to lead detailled local study. The collected data so far are statistics done in Borj Hamoud and periphery. Hence there isn't so far a professional data on which arguments can be based. Anyway according to a study done by Al-Shahya (the monthly) number 47 published in September 2007, the statistics of look as follows;

In 1860 (Lebanon had an area of about 3.500 km2) Maronites 101,900, Catholics 38,625, Druz 35,475, Orthodox 30,375, Muslim 10,519, Protestants 500 and Jews 290.

In 1932 (with the current are 10452 km2), Maronites 227,800 in Lebanon (123,397 immigrated), Orthodox 77,312 in Leb (56,031 immigrated), Catholic 46,709 in Leb (29,627 immigrated), Armeinan Orth. 26,102, Armenian Cath 5,980, Assyrian Orth. 2,723, Assyrian Cath. 2,803, Protestnts 1,869, Chaldeans 738, Sunnite 178,100, Shiites 155,035, Jews 3,588, minorities 11,293

In 2006 Sunnites 1,336,000, Shiites 1,333,000, Maronites 880,000, Orthodox 310,000, Druz 248,000, Catholic 204,000, Armeinan Orth. 104,000, Alewites 37,000, Armenian Cath 23,000, Assyrian Orth. 21,000, Evangelists 21,000, Latin 14,000, Assyrian Cath. 13,000, minorities 27,000

So currently Sunnite are the majority followed by Shiites. However if the Christians are in fear of Muslim, this is not the way to fight fear. Parts of the FPM program have a clear vision on how to fight Christians' fear: Introducing Al mouwatnye comprehension of nationhood and pledging a civil nation by irradicating secterianism is the way (shortly said). In the same study of Al Shahrya a scenario on the population growth indicates that already in 2016 (ceteris paribus) Sunnite will grow by 14% and Shiite by 16% while the other sects will decrease by around 20-50% i.e. by 2016 the Maronites would build about 17% of the population, while Sunnite about 30% and Shiite about 31%. Those numbers differ slightly from the current numbers. But in 2081 things will look different again ceteris paribus, and Maronites would be 7%, Sunnite 36% and Shiite 44%. The statistics are based on rate of birth of course.

Hence, a demographic change has occured and will always occur. Germany's population is currently 81 million and will be only 61 million (ceteris paribus) in 2050.

Besides, a nation's interest begins by added value as per Maslow through providing the least needs and up the hierarchy. Thus what i am saying is the needs of the people if offered then we can progress. In order to ensure the basic needs, laws are established to facilitate lives of individuals in the community, therefore we must have food, electricity, water, our sexual needs, a shelter. Then we must have an employment and a social status in order to build the society. So my question to this esteemed government and state, where are you from the basic needs of the people such as providing them with what ensures their FAMILY LIFE? Electricity, food etc and ensure that children are PART OF THIS COMMUNITY and not second degree citizens.

Again, what are the official stances of FPM regarding this issue since the demographic argument is unvalid as shown above.

[vicking]

My views :

1/ Politics & Church MUST ask Christian to have more children with incentives. Arafat launched "La Guerre du Ventre" in the 70's with each familly having a lot of children as a resistant act.

We must do this

2/ Give citizenship to Iraqi Christian who wants to be Lebanese. Maintain a policy for 50/50 which mean that the State will balance citizenships between Christian & Muslims in order that the total population is 50/50


If nothing works and we see impossible to stop our decrease, then it is better to partition otherwise we would end like all other arab countries.

Anyway we have the power to take any decision today. Let's now invest in unity and see what these 4 years will bring us, if only negative, then better to divorce.

[Dark Angel]

Dear Joumana,

I don’t think people will endorse or refute the naturalization act of descendents of Lebanese mothers without having an accurate idea about the numbers involved. How many of these cases exist in Lebanon? I don’t believe the numbers are galactic. But can you provide these numbers? If the range is below 10000 cases then I see no reason why this law should be refuted; the impact it will have on demographics is rather negligible.

Even if it wasn’t possible to go through with a full fledged naturalization, the least that could be done is to wave the fee that these children have to pay, you mentioned that it was $200 for minors and $1200 for adults, and considering the situation of most of these families, I doubt they can afford these payments.

I suggest you ready your statistics, and then try to work in parallel for both the citizenship right and for waving these ridiculous fees; you may be surprised as to how much support you can gather if you ring the right chimes; from a humanitarian perspective this nonsense cannot be allowed to proceed regardless of who wins the upcoming elections.

[johnnyFPM]

Originally Posted by vicking

My views :

1/ Politics & Church MUST ask Christian to have more children with incentives. Arafat launched "La Guerre du Ventre" in the 70's with each familly having a lot of children as a resistant act.

We must do this

2/ Give citizenship to Iraqi Christian who wants to be Lebanese. Maintain a policy for 50/50 which mean that the State will balance citizenships between Christian & Muslims in order that the total population is 50/50


If nothing works and we see impossible to stop our decrease, then it is better to partition otherwise we would end like all other arab countries.

Anyway we have the power to take any decision today. Let's now invest in unity and see what these 4 years will bring us, if only negative, then better to divorce.

OK let's not drive the thread away from it's orignal topic which was giving citizenship to children of lebanese mom and foreign parent.

I totally encourage this law. The politicians who refuse it do so because of the Palestinian issue. Yet none of them has explained how much the palestinian / lebanese weddings will affect demographics?

They are scared that palestinian men from refugee camps will marry lebanese women and have children that will be lebanese if the law is adopted (facilitating tawtin). My question is: how much lebanese women out there are gonna marry palestinian men? 1000, 2000, maybe? How will this affect demographics! It's not like all women are gonna start massively marrying palestinians, enno come on! If it was the case, they would already have done it.

Besides, even if lebanese women marry palestinian, won't these children be born and raised in Lebanon, and thus be Lebanese (or at least half lebanese) ?

If the fear is that high, such effects can be countered with Abi Nasr and Nicholas proposals:
- link this issue to the lost citizenship of emigrants and voting right abroad
- grant citizenship provided the husband's country does the same (very good idea in my opinion!)

However, i believe making a law that will grant citizenship to children from lebanese women except if the father is palestinian far too "racist" and not politically correct (in this sense, I'm not surprised it's PSP thugs who suggested this idea).

In the meantime, i think that kids of Lebanes women can at least be granted some basic rights (social security or inheritance rights). After all, they are half lebanese!

[dodzi]

It is strange. I read an article in which Gilberte Zouein supported the right of Lebanese mothers and wives to give the nationality... Could you tell us when you interviewed her on the subject?

As for the statistics (and previsions), it is kind of strange that by 2081 Muslims will make up 80% of the population... And we're not even counting the Druze!

While I do understand that Muslims will make up a very large number of inhabitants in Lebanon, I doubt that 80% is a serious number. Just as the assumption that Germany's population will drop by 20M in 30 years!

There will be a lot of immigration and emigration, whether in Lebanon or in Germany. Also, there will be a drop in the number of child per mother in Lebanon, amongst all sects. The reason: things will get pretty tough for all 12 million Lebanese to live in 10 500Km²!

Things will evolve, but it is impossible to predict in such a certain manner how exactly they will evolve!

[General my General!]

To be perfectly honest, I've always been ashamed that our country has such a policy. It is seriously embarassing, even more so when you have to explain it to a foreigner. That children of such women should recieve the nationality is an absolute must, regardless of sect or nationality of the husband. We have too many challenges to overcome in this country, they are loaded with decades of archaic mentality and chauvinism.

Come May 8th, and I hope we begin the process of change. Hopes are high, but nothing comes for free.

Joumana, I commend you on your efforts! And I have no doubt FPM will tackle the issue positively.

Cheers!

[punkgirlie16]

1. it is kind of interesting that the fm representative panicked. maybe out of fear that this was a trap?

2. the tawtin issue is not an allowed argument in this since it is makes no sense why lebanese fathers can have lebanese children with palestinian women but not the other way round. this is not so much racism by the way but sexism, a far as i see.

3. the demographic numbers for 2080 are greatly inflated. there is something that deeply strikes me as racist in the assumption that muslim families and women per se have and always will have more children than non-muslims. that is in fact part of a common anti-muslim stereotype which will, if tolerated, always be used to create anti-muslim hysteria. in fact if you look at how the birth rate in iran for example you will see that although after the islamic revolution there was at first a baby boom, caused by a massive trend towards religion and also by better social conditions for the under classes; but this effect was countered and arguably reversed by the growing equality between the sexes achieved by (guess what) the islamic republic.

4. now need for propaganda for more christian birthes: no need for hysteria about a demographic muslim menace: fight unequality and underdevelopement and empower the individuals against the families, and you need not even worry how the demographics would be by 2080 or 3276.

(5. this whole reminds me of how the israelis discuss demografics.)

[TTT1]

Originally Posted by Joumana Gebara

This thread is directed to FPM members only.

Dear FPMers,


I chose to make this public since FPM insists on being made accountable.

As you may have sensed, I will definitely not vote for Kataeb or Murr as a Metnist.

Best regards,

Joumana Gebara

University professor, journalist and published author.

Joumana,

I really appreciate that you opened this thread here.
At least this is the kind of debate we need to have during election times. Unfortunately, all is centered around sterile subjects such as the presidency or HA arms. All talk shows, all meetings,.,....
FPM MPs and candidates would love to talk about those subjects but unfortunately, every time they are on TV, they have to reply to the same old questions about HA, May 7, Pdt Sleiman....
We need so much to cover subjects such as yours, such as the healthcare system, economy, environment,....
Amazing how much no one focuses on those issues (and I am not blaming FPMers as they have always to reply to the attacks to others) and we are in election times!
Anyway, I will compile all the information that you have put here and will try to research it thoroughly and come back to you.

Thank you