FPM should keep on caring for Christian rights under the umbrella of secularism. This way, the party will still be able to collect enough Christian votes to sustain itself in Christian areas while detracting all those that accuse it of sectarianism.
FPM should keep on caring for Christian rights under the umbrella of secularism. This way, the party will still be able to collect enough Christian votes to sustain itself in Christian areas while detracting all those that accuse it of sectarianism.
So indirectly you're implying that the party’s main aim and goal should be the party itself...
Thank you!!
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Honestly, at this stage, we're not really in a position to debate whether we should be socialists, liberals, conservative, etc... The Lebanese electoral body is clearly not mature enough to understand those nuances...
Thanks
Political Ideologies are not there to be understood by the supporters and voters...
Political Ideologies are there to guide a leadership of a party...
is it possible to find another leader for FPM, it is but. will he be as effective as uiting all the FPM factions and its supporters?
I DOUBT THAT FOR NOW.
i know many leaders in FPM and they are smart and decent but i can not see myself even turning the tv to listen to any if GENERAL is no more.
I wont even bother reading a newspaper talkless of voting.
this subject we have discussed it many times among my friends and majority were of such opinion.
SO MY ADVICE, stop thinking about FPM future and live day by day and pray for GENERAL long life.
and guys teh same goes for the ga3ga3ist, kataeb,etc....
i tried to start a thread on this subject a while ago.
GENERAL (74),sg(60+) are the main national christian leader.who will take over when they are gone?
SF, kataeb ( sami only).
we have a serious leadership deficeincy in the christian community.
we have many local leaders but 1 or 2 on the national level.
Again, I don't want to interfere in FPM internal problems, but let me give my opinion...
1) A party CANNOT survive without an ideology... I am sorry to say this, till now non of the FPM partisans know whether the party is left? Right? Socialist? Communist? Capitalist?
Without an ideology I don't understand how a party can rule a country when it gets to power...
I generally agree with your post except this part. FPM has its charter and its political program. It's a movement which aim is to improve and modernize our political institutions and achieve the building of a lebanese state with everything's which is following the notion of state.
The ideology question is relative. How can we define left and right in Lebanon for instance ? The problem is that we try to apply in Lebanon the same distinctions which exist in the western countries while we can't.
Communism and socialism don't exist in Lebanon and will never happen. Even if Jumblatt's party's name includes "socialist" for instance, it's nothing but some kind of trade mark.
Indeed, if you apply the western standards, all the lebanese parties are rightists.
The truth is that in Lebanon there is no left and no right. You can - may be - define basically two kind of political view : the conservative one and the reformist one. But except FPM and some allies, I barely see any reformist party...
Don't forget that we're a democracy "in progress". There is this internal struggle between our feudal / traditional heritage and the modernization and rationalization dynamics.
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I generally agree with your post except this part. FPM has its charter and its political program. It's a movement which aim is to improve and modernize our political institutions and achieve the building of a lebanese state with everything's which is following the notion of state.
The ideology question is relative. How can we define left and right in Lebanon for instance ? The problem is that we try to apply in Lebanon the same distinctions which exist in the western countries while we can't.
Communism and socialism don't exist in Lebanon and will never happen. Even if Jumblatt's party's name includes "socialist" for instance, it's nothing but some kind of trade mark.
Indeed, if you apply the western standards, all the lebanese parties are rightists.
The truth is that in Lebanon there is no left and no right. You can - may be - define basically two kind of political view : the conservative one and the reformist one. But except FPM and some allies, I barely see any reformist party...
Don't forget that we're a democracy "in progress". There is this internal struggle between our feudal / traditional heritage and the modernization and rationalization dynamics.
I understand what you mean elias, and I never said FPM doesn't have a political program.
Hariri, either you like it or not, is adopting a capitalist economic plan, exactly the same way as they do it in the west. There are a lot of details that we don't hear in the media, but if you go deep in the decisions taken by Mr. Hariri since the 90s, you can put them together and found out that he has a pure capitalist western program in economy.
I am not saying he is right or wrong, but whenever a party says his economic plan is wrong, then the party should at least have a politico economical ideology... If not then on what basis are we saying that economy is wrong or right?
There are a lot of details that ideology can guide a leadership for taking decisions... Are you with privatization? yes? why? No? why?
I understand that Lebanon is not used to such ideologies, but didn’t you think for an instance, why the political scene is not healthy in Lebanon?
I understand what you mean elias, and I never said FPM doesn't have a political program.
Hariri, either you like it or not, is adopting a capitalist economic plan, exactly the same way as they do it in the west. There are a lot of details that we don't hear in the media, but if you go deep in the decisions taken by Mr. Hariri since the 90s, you can put them together and found out that he has a pure capitalist western program in economy.
I am not saying he is right or wrong, but whenever a party says his economic plan is wrong, then the party should at least have a politico economical ideology... If not then on what basis are we saying that economy is wrong or right?
There are a lot of details that ideology can guide a leadership for taking decisions... Are you with privatization? yes? why? No? why?
I understand that Lebanon is not used to such ideologies, but didn’t you think for an instance, why the political scene is not healthy in Lebanon?
Thank you!!
I fundamentally disagree with this, unless you boil down ideology to an economy problem...
Look at De Gaulle. What was his "ideology"? I think your comment holds water when you're talking about a "steady-state" situation, at least in terms of democratic maturity and existing robust institutions.
Lebanon needs to be built from scratch as a state. Either you fundamentally believe this superceeds any "ideology" or you do it "a la Hariri", you use capitalism as a way to steal half of the wealth of the country.
The institutions you build should be agnostic from any economical model you plan on using. The model itself will and should evolve... The institutions should be a bit more long term.
I'm not arguing that FPM should not have an economical vision or plan, I'm saying this is not the core of what is missing or the driver that would get people to vote for for FPM (or not).
People should vote for FPM and C&R more broadly because of their belief that they can build an independent state supported by sound institutions... the degree of economical liberalisation is secondary... At any rate, a "market based economy" in the existing set-up of Lebanon is not really a "free market" economy... It is a mazra3a!!!
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I fundamentally disagree with this, unless you boil down ideology to an economy problem...
Look at De Gaulle. What was his "ideology"? I think your comment holds water when you're talking about a "steady-state" situation, at least in terms of democratic maturity and existing robust institutions.
Lebanon needs to be built from scratch as a state. Either you fundamentally believe this superceeds any "ideology" or you do it "a la Hariri", you use capitalism as a way to steal half of the wealth of the country.
The institutions you build should be agnostic from any economical model you plan on using. The model itself will and should evolve... The institutions should be a bit more long term.
People should vote for FPM and C&R more broadly because of their belief that they can build an independent state supported by sound institutions... the degree of economical liberalisation is secondary... At any rate, a "market based economy" in the existing set-up of Lebanon is not really a "free market" economy... It is a mazra3a!!!
First of all it's good you brought De Gaulle up, but FPM might be another Gaulism if they don't choose a political Ideology. I'm sorry to bring it up again.
Gaulle had an ideology:
But the problem was:
And now you can ask to yourself, do you still have a Gaulist party? It's just an idea that exists nowadays...
Do you know why?
It's all about economic Ideologies... Check this out...
So you can see that after his death, no one really knew what Gaulism is, and how can someone be one, because he didn't have a very clear Ideology.
So either your ideology allows you to accept Hariri's plan or it doesn't...
Forget corruption now for a minute, and ideologically try to think if you accept Hariri's economic plan. You might not be able to, because of what i'm trying to explain to you...
Quote:
I'm not arguing that FPM should not have an economical vision or plan, I'm saying this is not the core of what is missing or the driver that would get people to vote for for FPM (or not).
3) Again the same problem... So is your aim just to make people vote for you and to have more votes?
If your aim is that, than there are a lot of ways to get them... I agree you don't need ideologies and If that's the aim of FPM then I am in the wrong thread...
But you know well that that's not the aim... At least from what I see...
is it possible to find another leader for FPM, it is but. will he be as effective as uiting all the FPM factions and its supporters?
I DOUBT THAT FOR NOW.
i know many leaders in FPM and they are smart and decent but i can not see myself even turning the tv to listen to any if GENERAL is no more.
I wont even bother reading a newspaper talkless of voting.
this subject we have discussed it many times among my friends and majority were of such opinion.
SO MY ADVICE, stop thinking about FPM future and live day by day and pray for GENERAL long life.
and guys teh same goes for the ga3ga3ist, kataeb,etc....
i tried to start a thread on this subject a while ago.
GENERAL (74),sg(60+) are the main national christian leader.who will take over when they are gone?
SF, kataeb ( sami only).
we have a serious leadership deficeincy in the christian community.
we have many local leaders but 1 or 2 on the national level.
christians need a trong party that can gather them irresepctive of their backgorund - we need to end the ouweit-3awniyeh era - it's destructive
FPM could have been in better position after the 2005 elections if they have adopted a strategy of containing the others - the big alliance not the exclusion.
just try to see how FM works with the mentality of alliance - what they did towards Mikati and Salam - even karameh
How they turned opponenets into allies.
FPM never do this !! FPM attack everybody!! kell el 3alam fesdine w ze3ran!!
10th July 2009
