Why the governemnt wants HA's weapons first and not Palestinian weapons?

[texasleb]

Originally Posted by Abou J

No labelling whatsoever, dont worry...instead a group learning session in logic.

If there are armed strangers in your country vs. armed fellow citizens, regardless of motives and causes, who would you want to disarm first?

Keep in mind that one of the reasons that Shiites carried arms was not only to fight Isreal, but also because of the persecution they suffered at the hands on palestinians in the south.

Want more? Did the palestinian weapons achieve anything in the past 50 yrs? Did HA weapons achieve anything?

More? Were palestinian weapons ever used against you? Were HA weapons ever used against you?

I hope you get to the same conclusion I got.

I agree I would rather have a stranger disarmed before a fellow citizen, but I will have to reference my post again to tell you how I feel... The shiites were no the only ones that suffered under the hands of the palestinians a lot of people all over the country did, and obviously all other armed groups "officially" disarmed so why not them...

neither weapons of either group achieved anything.. I will throw a little curve ball here... can you prove that if hizballah did not exist that Israel would have stayed in the south.. you're answer might be yes, but you can';t prove it.. its the chicken and the egg theory.. so them liberating the south which is what i believe you are trying to reference.. might not have been needed if they just never kept their weapons..

not sure if palestinian weapons were ever used against me.. i was very young and lived in the metn so more than likely it was my fellow chrisitans shooting at our buildings... and the syrians of course can't forget them ;) ... and in regards to hizballah they have not personally used there weapons against me ... but because of their weapons, armed aggression caused me to re-live the evacuation i endured when I was young and running away from lebanon from Jounieh.. I never wanted to relive that .. unfortunately I did and It will stay with me forever..

[3asheq Beirut]

Originally Posted by texasleb

I agree I would rather have a stranger disarmed before a fellow citizen, but I will have to reference my post again to tell you how I feel... The shiites were no the only ones that suffered under the hands of the palestinians a lot of people all over the country did, and obviously all other armed groups "officially" disarmed so why not them...

neither weapons of either group achieved anything.. I will throw a little curve ball here... can you prove that if hizballah did not exist that Israel would have stayed in the south.. you're answer might be yes, but you can';t prove it.. its the chicken and the egg theory.. so them liberating the south which is what i believe you are trying to reference.. might not have been needed if they just never kept their weapons..

not sure if palestinian weapons were ever used against me.. i was very young and lived in the metn so more than likely it was my fellow chrisitans shooting at our buildings... and the syrians of course can't forget them ;) ... and in regards to hizballah they have not personally used there weapons against me ... but because of their weapons, armed aggression caused me to re-live the evacuation i endured when I was young and running away from lebanon from Jounieh.. I never wanted to relive that .. unfortunately I did and It will stay with me forever..

You judge people by their precedent and their history. Wherever Israel occupied land in which it did not meet a formidable, organized resistance, it not only remained there but built settlements and brought Jews to implant them on the land. Cases in point are the Golan and the West Bank. There is no doubt that Israel would have remained in southern Lebanon and built Jewish settlements there were it not for the Resistance. Therefore, it is only logical to credit the Resistance with liberating Lebanese land.

[misstyrious]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

The phone lines are apparently part of its weapons, which is an absolutely ridiculous argument, because the phone lines are simply not weapons. If you people actually want a true government to be built, you should know that the restrictions are important to keep it within the law. Hizballah did not ask the government if it could place these lines, which goes beyond its role as a resistance. Furthermore, the threats launched by Hizballah are a simple representation of how they hold the Lebanese state. They want a Lebanese state that is subservient to them and not the other way around.

Its either lack of knowledge or pure ignorance towards the ways of war. Weapons might be the apparent tool but the other bigger tools of warfare is communications and media. Just look at the the way some of the advanced armies operate and the technology they carry on their backs. almost every soldier in advanced armies has some sort of communication apparatus on him. And then there's media warfare which can make or break a war and again all you need to look at is the way america censors its media when they are at war. And the way israel was hell bent on destroying almanar in the first days of the war.

Maybe they should go back to morse code or wolf whistles.

Hizbullah want for its people to exist in a fair country with similar opportunities and rights. Unlike the country that failed their people in the south for many many years. Where were the cries of siyyada when they were fighting their butts off to free Lebanese land. Oh sorry i forgot they were busy enjoying their trips to 3anjar and spending the money they earnt from that relationship in paris, newyork or jeddah.

Nothing has changed since they established the resistance, the communications network was a part of that resistance then and is still part of that resistance and will remain a part of this resistance until the country is free of occupation by foreigners and free of occupation by their slaves.

[Abou J]

Originally Posted by texasleb

I agree I would rather have a stranger disarmed before a fellow citizen, but I will have to reference my post again to tell you how I feel... The shiites were no the only ones that suffered under the hands of the palestinians a lot of people all over the country did, and obviously all other armed groups "officially" disarmed so why not them...

neither weapons of either group achieved anything.. I will throw a little curve ball here... can you prove that if hizballah did not exist that Israel would have stayed in the south.. you're answer might be yes, but you can';t prove it.. its the chicken and the egg theory.. so them liberating the south which is what i believe you are trying to reference.. might not have been needed if they just never kept their weapons..

not sure if palestinian weapons were ever used against me.. i was very young and lived in the metn so more than likely it was my fellow chrisitans shooting at our buildings... and the syrians of course can't forget them ;) ... and in regards to hizballah they have not personally used there weapons against me ... but because of their weapons, armed aggression caused me to re-live the evacuation i endured when I was young and running away from lebanon from Jounieh.. I never wanted to relive that .. unfortunately I did and It will stay with me forever..

Good, your personal experience that you do not want to re-live again even though its a minor inconvenience of having to jump on a boat compared to the death and destruction caused by palestinians should now been seen from another perspective...why would the southern community want to re-live again a life under palestinian control? What assurance can the government provide for them not to "re-live" their misery again?

P.S: Feel free to replace "Palestinian "with "Israeli" anywhere in the sentence above.

[texasleb]

Originally Posted by Abou J

Good, your personal experience that you do not want to re-live again even though its a minor inconvenience of having to jump on a boat compared to the death and destruction caused by palestinians should now been seen from another perspective...why would the southern community want to re-live again a life under palestinian control? What assurance can the government provide for them not to "re-live" their misery again?

P.S: Feel free to replace "Palestinian "with "Israeli" anywhere in the sentence above.

Lets put Israel on the side here.... so basically you are telling me that you fear that the palestinians will somehow take control again of parts of lebanon ?? welll like I said in my first post I truly believe if not hindered by political bickering and sectarian tensions (i.e. one sect trying to convince members in the army that belong to the same sect of acting against the mission of the army as a whole like during the civil war) then the army can take care of them. Maybe I am naive but thats what I think especially if the army keeps getting "newer" equipment and keeps upgrading. Also my case would be even stronger if as a lot of people are suggesting, hizballah weapons are somehow incorporated into the army...

[3asheq Beirut]

Originally Posted by WiseCookie

FPMers have obviously come a long way since 2005. One has to simply look at the archives to see how opinions have dramatically changed. Accusations of being zionist imperialist agents are flying left and right which pretty funny.

Anyway, the problem is that Hizballah is growing stronger by the minute, because no one is setting its limits. It is acting as a state within a state. The government did not remove its right to resist, but it's placing restrictions on its way of operations. The question in itself is flawed because the government also did not mention anything with the weapons, but Hizballah like the Syrians ties everything to its weapons.

The phone lines are apparently part of its weapons, which is an absolutely ridiculous argument, because the phone lines are simply not weapons. If you people actually want a true government to be built, you should know that the restrictions are important to keep it within the law. Hizballah did not ask the government if it could place these lines, which goes beyond its role as a resistance. Furthermore, the threats launched by Hizballah are a simple representation of how they hold the Lebanese state. They want a Lebanese state that is subservient to them and not the other way around.

It's really amuzing how March 14 leaders insult our intelligence by claiming to support the Lebanese state or even the true concept of a state. But their support for the Lebanese state only appears when discussing the issue of the weapons of the Resistance. Other than that, those same leaders have shown nothing but utter contempt for the Lebanese state and for building true state institutions. Those sectarian and tribal leaders treat their regions as cantons for themselves and exercise unquestioning authority over what they consider their subjects. They refuse to allow any citizen to operate in their territory without their first having a vested interest in it and the state is not allowed to diminish these powers that they have. Jumblatt supporters went absolutely berzerk when Lahoud insisted that Beiteddine belongs to the Lebanese state and not to the Jumblatt family. Hariri supporters in FM regions demonstrate their absolute loyalty to Hariri and could care less about the Lebanese state. Moreover, they treat ministries as their own profit-making businesses with no regard whatsoever to the actual role of such ministries.

Let's be at least honest with ourselves. These March 14 circus freaks are not, nor have they ever been, interested in building a real state in Lebanon with real, functioning, efficient institutions. They are merely currently pursuing a policy dictated by the US, which is to dismantle the Resistance, because US policy is that our people are not allowed to resist Israel and its criminal, brutal war machine. These so-called leaders are mere slaves and collaborators, as their past and present have clearly demonstrated. This talk of preserving and protecting the Lebanese state and its sovereignty over its land is mere empty rhetoric aimed at giving a friendly face to their devious and treasonous actions. If anyone actually believes that the only thing standing in the way of a modern, efficient, sovereign Lebanese state is Hizballah, then they really need to get themselves checked in to the nearest mental institution.

[terror]

Well the fact of the matter is that both weapons must be handed in to the Lebanese government.

Deciding to keep one weapon due to fear of the other is the kind of vicious cycle that leads to chaos and civil war.

Hezbollah's weapons are no good protection again naturalization, or Sunni fundamentalism, or the Palestinian weapons, or even Israel.

In fact, Hezbollah's weapons are responsible for intesifying all the above mentioned threats. Hezbollah has grown into a monster that has just swallowed and destroyed whatever was remaining of the state.

I'm not saying the threats don't exist. They sure do.

I am saying that Hezbollah's weapons are not a solution but part of the problem.

If you want to do the right thing, you have to call for the disarmament of both HA and the Palestinians. You can even make one conditional on the other, but don't ever think you need one for protection against the other.

That's the kind of false reasoning that led to the growth of Kataeb and other parties in the 70's that led to to chaos and destruction in all communities.

[taifoon]

Originally Posted by terror

If you want to do the right thing, you have to call for the disarmament of both HA and the Palestinians. You can even make one conditional on the other, but don't ever think you need one for protection against the other.

That's the kind of false reasoning that led to the growth of Kataeb and other parties in the 70's that led to to chaos and destruction in all communities.

My thanks go for the simple but yet much valid logic in your above statements. The rest is a different story and is a bit more complicated than claiming that Hizbollahs arms have a direct impact against the palestinians naturalization. Even though both issues have common denominators in respect to the enemy vs victim concept, they are not directly related. But as said, that's a different story.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by terror

Well the fact of the matter is that both weapons must be handed in to the Lebanese government.

Deciding to keep one weapon due to fear of the other is the kind of vicious cycle that leads to chaos and civil war.

Hezbollah's weapons are no good protection again naturalization, or Sunni fundamentalism, or the Palestinian weapons, or even Israel.

In fact, Hezbollah's weapons are responsible for intesifying all the above mentioned threats. Hezbollah has grown into a monster that has just swallowed and destroyed whatever was remaining of the state.

This up this is what you think, simply because you're outside the circle and you only see with the vision of one who is as such. Had you been one of those stuck in the crisis itself, you would've noticed that without the weapons you're off to Iraq.

HA's weapons are what's keeping matters stable. If they are given up without any security, Israel will hunt us down one by one using its allies inside. They had already prepared the cell they wanted to put HA leaders in. Pathetic. It's not the weapons that are troubling Israel, it's the people who carry them. Too bad no one cares but for his/her own tribe/area. Saying what you said above is what i call selfishness.

Cheers

[PhoenixResurrection]

Originally Posted by Chief

Why the government wants HA's weapons first and not palestinian weapons?

Because it was their part of the deal to swap the "majority".
They were supposed to complete this task probably by the end of 2005... 2.5years of delay is not tolerated by their silent partner...

What danger is more imminent? the danger of the palestinians? or the "danger" of the lebanese? Shame on our government who has no sign of consistency in his decisions. Shame on the people who woke up today clapping their hands.

ya3ne I would loved to have a statement about the palestinians weapons. ya 3ayb el shoum. now HA are ennemies inside the state, but what about the palestinians ? Anybody cares about their weapons?

The imminent danger is the militias rearming. we are repeating the same pre-1975 pattern where militias were flooding the country with their weapon warehouses preparing for the D day. And the army was given the order to just sit and watch...

People are calling for the control of weapons? go for multitasking and target all armed parties. But given that all protagonists are involved in the rearming race, this won't happen any time sooner unless the army takes things in hand without wait for the necessary orders which is not an easy task neither...