War on Gaza - Open discussion

[hannaalsayssa]

Originally Posted by hhhh23

Indeed, victories and defeats are measured by the strategic outcomes. The strategic outcome of the Gaza war was a defeat for both parties. Israel did halt a little bit the rockets of Gaza, but they will be back. Hamas killed a pack of Israelis that they would've killed anyways with one rocket. What will happen now is back to pre-War status, nothing achieved on both sides. The Israelis will still be cutting the life off Gaza and Hamas will fire rockets now and then.

Now that the strategic outcome is defeat for both, we go to measure the second criterion. Death tolls. The Palestinians lost more lives than the Israelis.

Future wars will only result in more casulaties, for the Palestinians more than the Israelis. And thats how it will go.


The future will continue in a vicious circle:
1- Resistance groups attacking Israel and claiming they will wipe it off the face of the earth.
2- Israel launching a war on these groups, resulting in thousands of dead civlians.
3- Resistance group declares winning the war.
4- Post-war status is like the pre-war status. Resistance claiming they will wipe Israel next time while the IDF recruiting replacement to launch a new war in the future.

The history of the Arab-Israeli conflict has been in this circle since its start and will continue. Who is paying the price? Palestinian civlians, and in the coming years their numbers will be going down until extinction whereas the Israelis can always bring new recruits from some western country.

WALLA THAT IS A FIRST, WALLA U BEST ME
AL arabiyya ma fa2arett be heik analysis.
u r the first one in this world to say that israel is winning the population numbers...

these 2000 killed shall be replaced double before the end of 09...
walla this is a novelty, maybe one day the jew will outnumber the arabs LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.
maybe if israel declares china or all of india as one of their last tribes

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by hhhh23

The strategic outcome of the Gaza war was a defeat for both parties.

This does not make sense at all.

Anyway,just because you say it,doesn't mean it's true.You still need to elaborate and explain,how from the strategic point of view,was Hamas defeated.

I think that i explained my points more than enough,and they are clear undeniable facts.

If you want to argue the opposite...challenge my points,related to strategy, and prove them wrong.

And please,stop bringing death tolls and destruction amounts into the equation...they do not have an added value in this specific assessment.

Originally Posted by hhhh23

Bottom line is, post-war in Gaza is like pre-war, with more people dead.

Bottom line,this is exactly where you're wrong.

[Abou Sandal]

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

This does not make sense at all.

Anyway,just because you say it,doesn't mean it's true.You still need to elaborate and explain,how from the strategic point of view,was Hamas defeated.

I think that i explained my points more than enough,and they are clear undeniable facts.

If you want to argue the opposite...challenge my points,related to strategy, and prove them wrong.

And please,stop bringing death tolls and destruction amounts into the equation...they do not have an added value in this specific assessment.



Bottom line,this is exactly where you're wrong.

First and foremost, I will apply your motto to you. What does not make sense to you, can make sense to a large chunk of other people.

Second, from a strategic point of view, Hamas, pre-war was surrounded by Israelis and Gaza, in particular, was under a huge embargo. Moreover, Hamas was governing in Gaza.

Now that the war is over, Hamas, will be once more surrounded by Israelis, Gaza will be under an embargo and Hamas will still remain governing in Gaza.

Third, pre-Gaza war the international community and the arabs, in majority, always ignore and refuse to see the deaths that Israel causes, this is historical. Post-Gaza war, the same countries that were supporting Israel are still supporting it and ignoring the atrocities that the Israelis did in Gaza. Hence, there is no "emotional" gain for Hamas out of this war.

Fourth, pre-Gaza war, Hamas were launching rockets on the Israelis. Post-Gaza war, Hamas will still launch rockets on the Israelis every now and then.

Fifth, the number of IDF troops and amunitions pre-war was X, and their number is X-(1%) now and will be retrieved to X in a few days. Similarly, the number of Hamas troops and amunitions was X, is X-(1%) and will be retrieved to X soon.

Sixth, Hamas was elected and supported by the Palestinians pre-war. The same palestinians will now still support Hamas, regardless of this war.


and the list goes on. The status of Hamas pre and post war is the same. I cannot see what "strategic" victory they achieved.

[tae]

Originally Posted by Venom

1- Hamas is not HA
2- Hamas did not lose, it is still on the ground but it was ineffective in combating the Israelis, they don't need more weapons but they need to upgrade them....
3- Israel didn't lose but was not able to finish Hamas. Their army proved again and again that they are bunch of cowards for they fought the civilians and not Hamas
4- Gaza is partially destroyed
5-Israeli towns were hit by heavy weight fire crackers.
6-To hell with the Arabs

7- IDF is not able to terminate Hamas, Hamas will stay in Palestine forever.
8- Mahmoud Abbas doesn't cry during wars

[Abou Sandal]

Some think that it is not worth throwing a rock at a tank

We don't!

[tae]

19:22 السنيورة: الملك عبد الله رجل تاريخي تتمة

He probably means that he is old

[Frisbeetarian]

First and foremost, I will apply your motto to you. What does not make sense to you, can make sense to a large chunk of other people.

Second, from a strategic point of view, Hamas, pre-war was surrounded by Israelis and Gaza, in particular, was under a huge embargo. Moreover, Hamas was governing in Gaza.

Now that the war is over, Hamas, will be once more surrounded by Israelis, Gaza will be under an embargo and Hamas will still remain governing in Gaza.

Third, pre-Gaza war the international community and the arabs, in majority, always ignore and refuse to see the deaths that Israel causes, this is historical. Post-Gaza war, the same countries that were supporting Israel are still supporting it and ignoring the atrocities that the Israelis did in Gaza. Hence, there is no "emotional" gain for Hamas out of this war.

Fourth, pre-Gaza war, Hamas were launching rockets on the Israelis. Post-Gaza war, Hamas will still launch rockets on the Israelis every now and then.

Fifth, the number of IDF troops and amunitions pre-war was X, and their number is X-(1%) now and will be retrieved to X in a few days. Similarly, the number of Hamas troops and amunitions was X, is X-(1%) and will be retrieved to X soon.

Sixth, Hamas was elected and supported by the Palestinians pre-war. The same palestinians will now still support Hamas, regardless of this war.


and the list goes on. The status of Hamas pre and post war is the same. I cannot see what "strategic" victory they achieved.

Israel survives in the midst of a hostile territory. It had asserted its existance by force. It is the image of its army that keeps jewish citizens in the belief that they are safe and well. Over the decades and the defeats, after 1948, and image surrounding that army had arisen, that it was unbreakable, thus promoting internal stability and ease of mind to the regular jew. After the war of 06 that image had been broken, that army is defeatable. Since then, Israel has been trying to procure ways to revert what had been done to its image. It is of so much importance, because without assurance that there is a very strong army defending them, the jews will not risk living in an area that is very much hostile to them.

So, much of the reason for this war, was to replenish trust in the Israeli army, and reinvigorate its citizens trust in it. Yet the outcome of the war had saddened these plans. Not only did their hugely more powerful army fail to stop rocket attacks, it had failed to annihilate a guerrila movement with very limited means, and which had sustained one a half years of imprisonment.

So, Israeli citizens, after these defeats, are more and more realizing that their army is beatable and that their security is compromised. Thus leading to widespread immigration from Israel and the latter collapse.

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by friendofzeus

Israel survives in the midst of a hostile territory. It had asserted its existance by force. It is the image of its army that keeps jewish citizens in the belief that they are safe and well. Over the decades and the defeats, after 1948, and image surrounding that army had arisen, that it was unbreakable, thus promoting internal stability and ease of mind to the regular jew. After the war of 06 that image had been broken, that army is defeatable. Since then, Israel has been trying to procure ways to revert what had been done to its image. It is of so much importance, because without assurance that there is a very strong army defending them, the jews will not risk living in an area that is very much hostile to them.

So, much of the reason for this war, was to replenish trust in the Israeli army, and reinvigorate its citizens trust in it. Yet the outcome of the war had saddened these plans. Not only did their hugely more powerful army fail to stop rocket attacks, it had failed to annihilate a guerrila movement with very limited means, and which had sustained one a half years of imprisonment.

So, Israeli citizens, after these defeats, are more and more realizing that their army is beatable and that their security is compromised. Thus leading to widespread immigration from Israel and the latter collapse.

This is another myth. The Israelis know that their army can be defeated, nobody believes its god. They did not wait for 2006 nor 2009 to know that.

But assuming what you are saying is right and since I do not have any knowledge in the actual numbers, can you back up your post by:
1- Providing the number of Israelis that left Israel for good (immigrated) from 2006-2009, using a good source and not a biased source?
2- Providing the number of Israelis that moved to Israel for good (immigrated) from 2006-2009, using a good source and not a biased source?

[J. Abizeid]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090119/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians
“Israel to pull out of Gaza by Obama inauguration”

Apparently, Gaza war was Bush’s final delivery to Israel.
Let’s wait and see what Obama’s contract looks like…