War on Gaza - Open discussion

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by hhhh23

You should maybe read what I write, dont you think? You certainly did not grasp what I have said. I did not claim that Israel achieved a VICTORY, far from that. However, Hamas did NOT achieve any victory either.

What happened in this war, is that both parties inflicted damage on each other. The damages that Israel inflicted on the Palestinians are beyond repair, and the death toll is huge. On the other hand, the damage that Hamas inflicted on the Israelis is bearable, those 50 soldiers can be replaced by bringing 50 jews from Russia or some western country.

All in all, it was a loss on both sides, but the loss from the Palestinian side is far far more than the Israelis.

Certainly, all wars have casualties, however, wars that are WON by a side or the other, end with one of the sides actually "WINNING" something. Unfortunately, no one won in this war.

However, if we have 10 or 20 more of such "victories" for Hamas, then you would have a death toll of around 12 000 to 24 000 palestinians with over 50 000 to 100 000 wounded. On the other hand, you would have a death toll of 500 to 1000 Israeli soldiers. Keep up the rhythm for a few years, and you will certainly have no more Palestinians to live in Gaza.

Finally, I am sure that you are more experienced than me in wars, you know better about victories and I am such a small person compared to you, so I am in no position to tell you that Hamas did not win, and I apologize for that.

No need to get aggressive.We're only exchanging points of view.

But i invite you to read once again my posts:Victories and defeats are not measured by death tolls and amount of destruction.

Victories and defeats are measured by the STRATEGIC outcome.That's a fact.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

I heard they were gonna hand a part of the WestBank to jordan and not keep it directly under Abbas if this mission succeeds.

Yes this is also true.But whether Jordan would have absorbed the West Bank,or the West Bank absorbed Jordan,is still something to figure out,since Jordan is an overwhelming Palestinian population...hehe

[Anny]

Originally Posted by hhhh23

You should maybe read what I write, dont you think? You certainly did not grasp what I have said. I did not claim that Israel achieved a VICTORY, far from that. However, Hamas did NOT achieve any victory either.

What happened in this war, is that both parties inflicted damage on each other. The damages that Israel inflicted on the Palestinians are beyond repair, and the death toll is huge. On the other hand, the damage that Hamas inflicted on the Israelis is bearable, those 50 soldiers can be replaced by bringing 50 jews from Russia or some western country.

All in all, it was a loss on both sides, but the loss from the Palestinian side is far far more than the Israelis.

Certainly, all wars have casualties, however, wars that are WON by a side or the other, end with one of the sides actually "WINNING" something. Unfortunately, no one won in this war.

However, if we have 10 or 20 more of such "victories" for Hamas, then you would have a death toll of around 12 000 to 24 000 palestinians with over 50 000 to 100 000 wounded. On the other hand, you would have a death toll of 500 to 1000 Israeli soldiers. Keep up the rhythm for a few years, and you will certainly have no more Palestinians to live in Gaza.

Finally, I am sure that you are more experienced than me in wars, you know better about victories and I am such a small person compared to you, so I am in no position to tell you that Hamas did not win, and I apologize for that.

See I dont agree with you either, you are measuring who won and who lost a war by the number of dead people and casualities in a long term run. You forgot to mention what Hamas won as a power right now in Gaza and the way things will be done in the futur because of this power they won. It is very comparable to what HA won in 2006 after the July war with Israel.

After all, they now have representative in the Lebanese governement, they will run in the elections in June 2009 and they are more and more loved by Arabs populations and have more armery than ever before. They have maybe half of the christians with them Aoun and Frangieh and they now help the Lebanese Army in certain political desicions. The same thing will happen with Hamas but they will now have more votes than ever before and lots of support from other arab population. So did they really lost this war, humm I dont think so... Next year, go back to Gaza and you will see that it is even better than before the war and no more damages after the war, Iran has money to rebuild there nation, like they did in South Lebanon.

[Venom]

1- Hamas is not HA
2- Hamas did not lose, it is still on the ground but it was ineffective in combating the Israelis, they don't need more weapons but they need to upgrade them....
3- Israel didn't lose but was not able to finish Hamas. Their army proved again and again that they are bunch of cowards for they fought the civilians and not Hamas
4- Gaza is partially destroyed
5-Israeli towns were hit by heavy weight fire crackers.
6-To hell with the Arabs

[Frisbeetarian]

2- Hamas did not lose, it is still on the ground but it was ineffective in combating the Israelis, they don't need more weapons but they need to upgrade them....

Agreed. Im presuming the raids hit their b29 stocks.

3- Israel didn't lose but was not able to finish Hamas. Their army proved again and again that they are bunch of cowards for they fought the civilians and not Hamas

Dont agree. By not finishing off hamas it, it fails to achieve the most important of its objectives. Thus it is a loss. Hamas will remain, the threat on Israel is not dealt with.

6-To hell with the Arabs

A-men

[Anny]

Originally Posted by Venom

1- Hamas is not HA
2- Hamas did not lose, it is still on the ground but it was ineffective in combating the Israelis, they don't need more weapons but they need to upgrade them....
3- Israel didn't lose but was not able to finish Hamas. Their army proved again and again that they are bunch of cowards for they fought the civilians and not Hamas
4- Gaza is partially destroyed
5-Israeli towns were hit by heavy weight fire crackers.
6-To hell with the Arabs

1- Who said that Hamas is HA; I agree with you they are not but in this war that was very much similar than the one with HA in 2006, the same gains that HA had will be the same for Hamas in the futur or very similar; more popularity and more power in their nation.

2- What do you know about Hamas being inafective to beat the israelis ? We dont know anything about it. After 3-4 days that Israelis were on the ground, they stoped the war, they might have another reason to stop too. We didnt see much of what was going on in the streets.

3 and 4- You are absolutly right.

5- I have not a clue what was happening in Israel since there was no tv proves. So I dont belive a thing Olmert said.

6- Arabs are mostly USA puppets

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

No need to get aggressive.We're only exchanging points of view.

But i invite you to read once again my posts:Victories and defeats are not measured by death tolls and amount of destruction.

Victories and defeats are measured by the STRATEGIC outcome.That's a fact.

Indeed, victories and defeats are measured by the strategic outcomes. The strategic outcome of the Gaza war was a defeat for both parties. Israel did halt a little bit the rockets of Gaza, but they will be back. Hamas killed a pack of Israelis that they would've killed anyways with one rocket. What will happen now is back to pre-War status, nothing achieved on both sides. The Israelis will still be cutting the life off Gaza and Hamas will fire rockets now and then.

Now that the strategic outcome is defeat for both, we go to measure the second criterion. Death tolls. The Palestinians lost more lives than the Israelis.

Future wars will only result in more casulaties, for the Palestinians more than the Israelis. And thats how it will go.


The future will continue in a vicious circle:
1- Resistance groups attacking Israel and claiming they will wipe it off the face of the earth.
2- Israel launching a war on these groups, resulting in thousands of dead civlians.
3- Resistance group declares winning the war.
4- Post-war status is like the pre-war status. Resistance claiming they will wipe Israel next time while the IDF recruiting replacement to launch a new war in the future.

The history of the Arab-Israeli conflict has been in this circle since its start and will continue. Who is paying the price? Palestinian civlians, and in the coming years their numbers will be going down until extinction whereas the Israelis can always bring new recruits from some western country.

[hannaalsayssa]

the hell with arab leaders , but not the people..

as for hamas, it will be the number 1 in palestine.
i guess israel knows that and at least when israel makes a deal whetehr directly or indirectly with hamas, it know that the deal will hold.
just think about it, when u enter a neighberhood, the first thing u ask is who is the king maker and than u meet them and make a deal.

hamas was always the king maker, fateh is now to collect money and be a gougey to hamas.

also gaza shall be better build after all this war, not bad for a result huh

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by Anny

See I dont agree with you either, you are measuring who won and who lost a war by the number of dead people and casualities in a long term run. You forgot to mention what Hamas won as a power right now in Gaza and the way things will be done in the futur because of this power they won. It is very comparable to what HA won in 2006 after the July war with Israel.

After all, they now have representative in the Lebanese governement, they will run in the elections in June 2009 and they are more and more loved by Arabs populations and have more armery than ever before. They have maybe half of the christians with them Aoun and Frangieh and they now help the Lebanese Army in certain political desicions. The same thing will happen with Hamas but they will now have more votes than ever before and lots of support from other arab population. So did they really lost this war, humm I dont think so... Next year, go back to Gaza and you will see that it is even better than before the war and no more damages after the war, Iran has money to rebuild there nation, like they did in South Lebanon.

First, I did not claim Hamas lost and Israel won. Again, both parties achieved nothing. Second, comparing Hamas to HA is a bit out of line here. Third, HA was involved in the government, won the people vote and got the majority in 2005, way before their war in 2006. Foruth, HA won the votes of Aoun in February 2006, way before the war in 2006. Fifth, arab countries who support HA were the same pre and post the war in 2006. Please give me an example of an arab country who was anti-HA before July 2006 and became pro-HA after July 2006.

Next year, go back to Gaza, you will see that out of the 5000 injured at least 10-15% have died, and out of the families of the 1200 who died at least 80% have emigrated and asked asylum in some western countries. All of those cannot be rebuilt by the money that Iran will give to Hamas.

Bottom line is, post-war in Gaza is like pre-war, with more people dead.

[Ashrafieh_LF]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

Some people on this forum forget the basics, like for example: the people of Palestine chose HAMAS to represent them because it resists politically and militarily, The day HAMAS stops resisting is the day they will lose all thier support.

Ok if the Palestinian people chose Hamas then they should face the consequences and stop moaning and whining when civilians die! You can't have it both ways. If you want Hamas to represent you then stop complaining when civilians die. Mabrouk to all for this awesome victory! The Zionists imperialists were soundly defeated! Let me know when the victory party will be held.