I think that there has been a lot of waste of time and energy in this thread,although the subject itself, is of the utmost importance for the future of this country.
I suggest that we discuss it in the light of those 3 questions:
1-Do you think that a sectarian system and a sectarian constitution, like the ones we have in Lebanon,can be qualified or can be compatible with the word "democracy"?
2-Do you think that in a secular democratic system,everyone would have the opportunity and the equal chance to get elected at any post,thus very popular men like GMA or SHN would be easily elected at the highest state offices?
Just forget for few moments about the fact that this one is Shiite and that one is Maronite.This one Druze or that one Sunni.Forget about the ratios and numbers of each sect.Forget about whether you would prefer to vote for a secular person or for a religious one.Those are non-issues here IMHO.
Just focus on the popularity factor,since in a democracy,winning votes is just about popularity...Nothing more,nothing less.
Why are we wasting time with side talks and useless debates?Let's just focus on the principle itself instead.
And final question,
3-Do you really want the Lebanese system to become a secular democracy?Are you ready for that?A system where even a monkey (to take back Mehdi Soldier's figure of speech) can be elected president of the republic.
But the title of this thread is specifying HN becoming a president among every other Lebanese. It's not about how democratic is the system in Lebanon is.
It's very smart to divert the flow of discussions, because it's showing the huge difference in mentality between the closest allies of today.
And since you are so fond of democracy, is it democratic that the same person this thread talking about decides for all the Lebanese the peace and war decisions? Is it democratic to force the resistance ideology on all of them?
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But the title of this thread is specifying HN becoming a president among every other Lebanese. It's not about how democratic is the system in Lebanon is.
The title of the thread says:"if there is democracy hassan nasrallah would have been president"
Meaning:In a democracy,a person as popular as Hassan Nassrallah can be elected as president of the republic.While the sectarian system in Lebanon,prevents this simple democratic rule from applying.
And that is exactly what George Galloway means.And he is right in principle.
But i can understand that this is something above your reach,and i never expect your sectarian mind to get at the level of understanding such basic principles and rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leb-wi-noss
It's very smart to divert the flow of discussions, because it's showing the huge difference in mentality between the closest allies of today.
No offense but this is so not an intelligent remark for me to comment on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leb-wi-noss
And since you are so fond of democracy, is it democratic that the same person this thread talking about decides for all the Lebanese the peace and war decisions? Is it democratic to force the resistance ideology on all of them?
First,the one who decides war and peace in the whole region,is Israel and only Israel.
Second,I find your attacks on the resistance,unpatriotic and non democratic,simply because the resistance is legitimate and justified.
Furthermore the resistance is also legalized and reaffirmed and confirmed,by our successive governments in their "mission statements" and most importantly,by our constitution.
If you don't like it...Fine...get yourself your own mjority and amend the constitution.We'll talk then.
But if you want to work against it...You are not only violating our constitution,but also facilitating our enemy's mission...willingly or unwillingly.
So go learn about democracy before opening your mouth,and do not even get fooled by the illusion that you can have anything to teach about it to anyone.
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Am sure many would think those words (of the thread title) are the fanatic/extremist words of “mehdi soldier” who is a Shia Muslim zealot. Well to disappoint you, I was on YouTube having fun when I found a video of George Galloway, the outspoken British MP. His exact words tells us of the mess of the so called democracy we have in Lebanon. I have always being a crusader and a jihadist against the sectarian, confessional and apartheid democracy we have in Lebanon. To be honest I find very little difference between our democracy and that of the Nazi state of “Israel”. The only difference is Lebanon is not a state established on the land of another country and is not built on occupation. Else, all the tendencies and features are the same with “Israel” when it comes to segregation, racism and discrimination. They are a religious state built on racist ideas and so is Lebanon. You have to be from a particular religious sect to get a national position. National positions are meant to be for all citizens with no discrimination. We know that is not the case in Lebanon. You have to be Maronite Christian to be president and army commander. You have to be Sunni Muslim to be prime minister and you have to be Shia Muslim to be speaker of parliament. In other cases you have to be from a particular religious sect to be a class teacher in lebanon! This system has caused us conflicts and wars and chaos. When has your religious identity or affiliation become the basis for judging competence?well that is the case in lebanon. When is this mess going to be stopped before it stops us?!!!
Here is the video of George Galloway (pay special attention as from the 3rd minute):
You seem to always bring this up, I'm really surprised as to why you feel so "targeted" or marginalized from power sharing in Lebanon. You also seem to almost blame FPM or Christians I guess for the fact that a Shiite can't be president.
It seems like u feel inferior because u have a Christian as president.
Lebanon is NOT a democracy, and, as long as we are officially at war with another country, to apply or even discuss democracy is foolish. Until we have a peace treaty with Israel, if/when that day comes, bringing something like this up while there are at least a dozen different armed groups both foreign and domestic including hizbullah is nonsensical. The way things are as of now, nobody can take your democracy preaching seriously and with sincere intentions.
As others mentioned earlier, SHN has a much bigger role to play in regional politics than the Lebanese presidency.
I'm sure most Lebanese would have no problem with SHN as president if hizbullah were completely disarmed from their last bullet and join Lebanese politics un-armed like other parties.
At this point, Lebanon is struggling to survive and re-define its identity; the best we can hope to apply are some democratic values.
Cheers.
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Galloway's wrong on one thing. If the entire population were to vote for presidency today, with any Lebanese as candidate regardless of sect, GMA would win, hands down.
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If the entire population were to vote for presidency today, with any Lebanese as candidate regardless of sect, GMA would win, hands down.
You're probably right if it includes Lebanese citizens living abroad like any true democracy.
I voted for Obama while I was in Lebanon, why can't I vote for GMA from the U.S?
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Galloway's wrong on one thing. If the entire population were to vote for presidency today, with any Lebanese as candidate regardless of sect, GMA would win, hands down.
That's maybe if you suppose that people like GMA and SHN would run against each others.
By the way,
George Galloway is not only right on the principle,but i can even prove the veracity of his words in another context.
As illustration,i can safely say:
"there is no democracy in lebanon.if there is democracy GMA would have been president"
Because i can safely confirm that what prevented someone as popular as GMA from being elected President,is exactly the same sectarian system that prevents someone as popular as SHN from being elected president.
So don't worry yourself too much with counting votes...numbers don't necessarily get anyone anywhere in our system.
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You seem to always bring this up, I'm really surprised as to why you feel so "targeted" or marginalized from power sharing in Lebanon. You also seem to almost blame FPM or Christians I guess for the fact that a Shiite can't be president.
It seems like u feel inferior because u have a Christian as president.
you shouldnt be suprised that i feel sincerely bad that in my country at least over 60% of the citizens dont have the right to hold a particular position because they are from a particular sect.its suprising that you dont feel bad.
i dont hold the FPM for this ugly reality in lebanon.i do hold many maronite personalities for this ugly situation in lebanon.
i dont feel inferior because "its a christian".i would be against it as much as i am against it today,even if it were only shias who are allowed to hold the presidency/PM.its only unfortunate that lebanese are so prejudice and biased that they dont see how bad,ugly and wicked this system is in lebanon if they are benefitting from it.
Quote:
Lebanon is NOT a democracy, and, as long as we are officially at war with another country, to apply or even discuss democracy is foolish. Until we have a peace treaty with Israel, if/when that day comes, bringing something like this up while there are at least a dozen different armed groups both foreign and domestic including hizbullah is nonsensical. The way things are as of now, nobody can take your democracy preaching seriously and with sincere intentions.
i dont know how many people would agree with this.no logic at all.its not worth replying to.
Quote:
As others mentioned earlier, SHN has a much bigger role to play in regional politics than the Lebanese presidency.
I'm sure most Lebanese would have no problem with SHN as president if hizbullah were completely disarmed from their last bullet and join Lebanese politics un-armed like other parties.
At this point, Lebanon is struggling to survive and re-define its identity; the best we can hope to apply are some democratic values.
Cheers.
this thread is not all about SHN becoming president.its more about the bad system we have in place.
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Let's consider the definition of democracy - which is debatable from a philosophical and legal point of view - : Basically, it's a corpus of philosophical and political principles in regard of which, a social group set up the rules regarding its functionning. Those rules are created, decided, implemented and monitored by the members of this social group.
Hence, there are many different forms of democracy.
In Lebanon, we form a specific social group which, in fact, is divided in several second social groups according to each group confession.
In order to form a country, those different groups agree on a sectarian system based on the consensual principle.
The current sectarian system and our sectarian constitution were adopted by the lebanese accordingly.
Our representatives are elected under sectarian rules but, as people do vote and have the possibility to chose their representatives among several candidates and as anybody can present his candidacy, provided the respect of the sectarian rules in this matter, this sectarian system with all its flaws is a democratic system.
But a specific one : it's a consensual democracy.
Now does it fit with my opinion about democracy...well, not that much.
Theoretically, yes. But in case we keep our strict parliamentary system where MP have no direct mandate from the people or from their constituency but a general one - each MP representing the Nation and not its proper constituency, MPs can vote for a man who's not the most popular (for President, then PM ...).
It's a wide and interesting question which should be adressed within the scope of the question related to the institutional system.
I'm all for it. Although I don't think that given our recent history, the current situation and our issues, we can implement a secular democracy right now. But we have to work for it and to start reforming our political system, step by step.
On a side note, this sectarian system is linked with our feudal heritage. Removing sectarianism needs that we fight against the services form of our society too (as much as we must fight to change people's minds and convince them that we must consider ourselves lebanese brothers, whatever our religion or social background is).
Elias,
I cannot thank you enough for understanding my post and the real meaning of it,and addressing it in a perfect and direct way.
Like usual,I agree with probably all of what you said here,but unfortunately,it is still clearly not easy to engage in such debate in Lebanon.
I fear that many Lebanese will not be ready for such a step anytime soon.They still fear it and think that their safety is in an improved or advanced version of our system...and not with a completely new version.
But it's ok,we'll still work hard on it
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you shouldnt be suprised that i feel sincerely bad that in my country at least over 60% of the citizens dont have the right to hold a particular position because they are from a particular sect.its suprising that you dont feel bad.
i dont hold the FPM for this ugly reality in lebanon.i do hold many maronite personalities for this ugly situation in lebanon.
i dont feel inferior because "its a christian".i would be against it as much as i am against it today,even if it were only shias who are allowed to hold the presidency/PM.its only unfortunate that lebanese are so prejudice and biased that they dont see how bad,ugly and wicked this system is in lebanon if they are benefitting from it.
i dont know how many people would agree with this.no logic at all.its not worth replying to.
this thread is not all about SHN becoming president.its more about the bad system we have in place.
The point I was trying to make is that I was agreeing with u about the lack of democracy in Lebanon; however, having a Shiite President, other than making u feel better and feed your pride, doesn't turn Lebanon to a democracy.
The fundamentals of democracy are missing and we are living daily on the brink of a possible war, addressing or solving those issues precede changing our sectarian system which would only lead to more internal divisions that the country does not need.
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10th January 2009
