"there is no democracy in lebanon.if there is democracy hassan nasrallah would have been president"

[Abou Sandal]

I think that there has been a lot of waste of time and energy in this thread,although the subject itself, is of the utmost importance for the future of this country.

I suggest that we discuss it in the light of those 3 questions:

1-Do you think that a sectarian system and a sectarian constitution, like the ones we have in Lebanon,can be qualified or can be compatible with the word "democracy"?

2-Do you think that in a secular democratic system,everyone would have the opportunity and the equal chance to get elected at any post,thus very popular men like GMA or SHN would be easily elected at the highest state offices?


Just forget for few moments about the fact that this one is Shiite and that one is Maronite.This one Druze or that one Sunni.Forget about the ratios and numbers of each sect.Forget about whether you would prefer to vote for a secular person or for a religious one.Those are non-issues here IMHO.

Just focus on the popularity factor,since in a democracy,winning votes is just about popularity...Nothing more,nothing less.

Why are we wasting time with side talks and useless debates?Let's just focus on the principle itself instead.


And final question,

3-Do you really want the Lebanese system to become a secular democracy?Are you ready for that?A system where even a monkey (to take back Mehdi Soldier's figure of speech) can be elected president of the republic.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by orange infection

e7em e7em
no one was offending islam or something ........
but you wrote that so u can try to explain why he did that teklif shar3eh while it was completely wrong
not just because he made ppl vote for the wrong side , forcing ppl to vote to any side is wrong

Takleef shar3e is not force, it's a takleef :). There is a takleef for every Muslim woman to only show her face and palms, some show everything. Ehum ehum. No one can force you to do anything, people point out the way and you choose. That thing coming from HA back then was nothing but a reminder of the too obvious.

that was the main reason why lebanese are divided , coz they are ruled by religious men , and everyone of them will work for the sake of his religion (or himself claiming that it's for his relgion) , wich might contradict or stand in the way of another religion's interest and will lead to a conflict ( this is the main subject here)

I don't like to see Lebanon ruled by a religious figure because the Lebanese do not follow the same religion, plain an simple. I would vote Aoun for president and not Nasrallah.

u are talking metel ka2eno hal shi mnel mousallamet
a lot of ppl don't think like that , that's just the way shiites think .......if that's enough for you , then accept the fact that if there's a real democracy in lebanon my dad would be president just coz my family think so

Your dad is not Nasrallah if you are trying to compare, neither is mine, nor can he wish to be.

What is mnel mousallamet, is that anyone who opposes the terrorism of America and Israel, the killers of children, is to be worshiped as a God. It is debatable and logic wins. You cannot put someone who backs up geagea in his crusade on the Chrsitians anywhere close to he who gives all for his country regardless of sect or religion, unless you want to fall in the league of fools which constitute the majority of mankind. Zion himself speaks of Nasrallah's honesty and admires him for it. Honest men are the religious men, the others are hypocrites who will be the first to lose their heads when time comes.

What is mnel mousallamet is what you will witness very soon, hang in there. Then you can come to me and talk of what is mousallamet and what is salamo 3alaikum.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by superduper703

Let's say, for argument's sake, that Hassan Nasrallah is voted president of the Lebanese Republic.

That is a funny thing you're making us imagine here .

Do you think he will respect the constitution or will he impose Shari'a laws?

He would have to respect the contitution that is not worthy of anyone's respect.

Will Christians become "Ahl zoumma"?

What does "Ahl Zoumma" mean?

Will people be able to buy alcohol and consume it in public? etc. etc.

Yes, they can drink till they drop dead. Who cares? People are getting drunk and throwing up in Dahyi every night.

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by unitedlb

According to the current statistics of the Lebanese interior ministery, Shiites make up only 26% of the voting population, making them the second largest sect in Lebanon and nowhere near the >50% required to be a majority. Sunnis are closer to 27%, the Christians combined are 39-40% and the Druze about 5-6%. I doubt that many people outside the Shiite sect would vote for Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah to be president and I understand that he will not win the votes of all Shiites. I think that Sayyed Hassan would only win about 20% of the vote and that George Gallaway needs to do a bit more study.

Yes the latest study from 1939 says the christians make up 40% of Lebanese. Where have you been living? There are hardly any christians left in Lebanon. You'd be doing well if you make up 30%. If you are sure of you numbers lets have a sensus and see.

I do not agree with what you say about SHN not getting votes from non shia, he will get a reasonable number of votes from other sects for sure, finally and most importantly:

SHN IS BIGGER THAN A PRESIDENCY SEAT, THIS POSITION IS BELOW HIM AND WHAT HE STANDS FOR.

I give this thread a day or two and it will be closed. What's this BS about SHN being president? Who wants to be president of Lebanon? I'd rather be a zabal in NY.

[MPFL]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

1-Do you think that a sectarian system and a sectarian constitution, like the ones we have in Lebanon,can be qualified or can be compatible with the word "democracy"?

There is no compatibility what so ever with the word democracy in it's true and only meaning...
What we are able to achieve as people is to elect our MPs and give them the chance to compete and beat the hell of each other..
Even There is no democracy in each sect by itself...

Sunni Agree with Shia can overcome Christians..
Shia with Christians can overcome sunni.. and so on

and within the one sect
The people Representative + Religious figure of the sect Can rule the sect minority
The minority + Religious figure can equal or rule the people rep...

So we are way far from democracy unfortunately and not even having the minimum of democracy where earch sect majority can represent the whole sect in the government and the minority will be the opposition

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

2-Do you think that in a secular democratic system,everyone would have the opportunity and the equal chance to get elected at any post,thus very popular men like GMA or SHN would be easily elected at the highest state offices?

Just forget for few moments about the fact that this one is Shiite and that one is Maronite.This one Druze or that one Sunni.Forget about the ratios and numbers of each sect.Forget about whether you would prefer to vote for a secular person or for a religious one.Those are non-issues here IMHO.

Just focus on the popularity factor,since in a democracy,winning votes is just about popularity...Nothing more,nothing less.

Eventually any person - I would vote for a religious figure what so ever - will have the chance to be elected based on popularity if we are in a secular system...But a religious figure can never be a candidate in a secular system. because criticizing him will be seen by many as critics to to the sect itself.

This doesn't seem to be real now but once we are in a secular system people will have the right mentality

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

3-Do you really want the Lebanese system to become a secular democracy?Are you ready for that?A system where even a monkey (to take back Mehdi Soldier's figure of speech) can be elected president of the republic.

Eventually this will happen but we should reach that point step by step.
I am with "Moudawara" in the 3 top seats "President, PS, PM"
...and giving the president and Prime Minister some equal power...
The PM and President should be running the country
PS should be monitoring and legalizing those 2.

[LebanesePride]

The sectarian system is a lie and christians arent benefiting from it.

1st the president has no powers.

2ndly christians now vote for 40(?) deputies, the same that theyd vote for if the proportional law was agreed on and theres no sectarian system.

What theyd lose are the christians jounblatt and hariri picks, and the 2 or 3 that Hezballah or Amal pick.

Finally, Hezballah may be the largets party but its definitely not the majority.

For example, in 2005, FPM and allies got 1/3 of votes, hezballah/amal 1/3 and FM/PSP/LF 1/3.

Lets say FPM had allied with FM/PSP, and demanded hezballah disarms.

That would have been the majority, would hezballah have accepted that?


This threatening with numbers thing in lebanon is silly and meaningless.

Everyone here is a minority, so all of them should shut it and stop tekbir rass and work out a solution thats fair to everyone.

[General my General!]

Originally Posted by LebanesePride

The sectarian system is a lie and christians arent benefiting from it.

1st the president has no powers.

2ndly christians now vote for 40(?) deputies, the same that theyd vote for if the proportional law was agreed on and theres no sectarian system.

What theyd lose are the christians jounblatt and hariri picks, and the 2 or 3 that Hezballah or Amal pick.

Finally, Hezballah may be the largets party but its definitely not the majority.

For example, in 2005, FPM and allies got 1/3 of votes, hezballah/amal 1/3 and FM/PSP/LF 1/3.

Lets say FPM had allied with FM/PSP, and demanded hezballah disarms.

That would have been the majority, would hezballah have accepted that?


This threatening with numbers thing in lebanon is silly and meaningless.

Everyone here is a minority, so all of them should shut it and stop tekbir rass and work out a solution thats fair to everyone.

Its too deep in the Lebanese mentality. Too many people want to flex their seemingly huge muscles, not stopping to think how backward and sectarian their perspectives are. And still much accept being dictated what to think, be it from FM, FPM, HA or LF. The time when 50.1% of the Lebanese population learns to think for themselves, is when we'd have a chance for an informed democracy. Until then, we try to make the ride to development as bumpless as possible!

[totally_neutral]

What is so funny is that you people started to discuss the issue and most of you turned it into a raw and akid shabibet el 14 started to talk about "dawla islamiya" and "wilayat fakih" and "ahl zoumma" as they do not have anything else to talk about when it comes to Hizbollah.........anyway..you have gone too far in this subject but did anyone of you asked first, would SHN even ACCEPT or CARE to be the President of Lebanon? I guess not! w keef ma badkon tefhamouwa fhamouwa

[joseph_lubnan]

If we had a secular system in Lebanon, if Hezbollah was only a political party, if we did not have armed factions, if we did not have illegally foreign funded parties, and if then SHN runs for president he most likely would not win. Let Galloway do his usual clowning about internal UK issues and spare us his BS. If he wants to help, let him propose a mechanism for disarmament of all in Lebanon. It is disingenuous and theatrical for him to blab about the popularity of an Iranian funded armed Islamic fundamentalist militia in Lebanon, and claim that this popularity ought to manifest itself democratically.

Lebanon should be sovereign and free of armed factions. Political parties should be banned from receiving funds from foreign governments. Lebanon's governance system should be democratic and secular... and who cares then who would be president.

[shevchenco]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

If we had a secular system in Lebanon, if Hezbollah was only a political party, if we did not have armed factions, if we did not have illegally foreign funded parties, and if then SHN runs for president he most likely would not win. Let Gallaway do his usual clowning about internal UK issues and spare us his BS. If he wants to help, let him propose a mechanism for disarmament of all in Lebanon. It is disingenuous and theatrical for him to blab about the popularity of an Iranian funded armed Islamic fundamentalist militia in Lebanon, and claim that this popularity ought to manifest itself democratically.

Lebanon should be sovereign and free of armed factions. Political parties should be banned from receiving funds from foreign governments. Lebanon's governance system should be democratic and secular... and who cares then who would be president.

I totally support this; I've always dreamt about the day when we get rid of tayyar el mestahbil., As of HA, I don't know if you know that they have businesses and companies of their own.