Solving the middle east problem: naturalizing the palestinians

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

You seem to be losing your sense of cynicism... not good... you become ordinary.

You may be right about this observation. I suppose spending too much time in the lounge discussing promiscuity, virginity, my favourite fruits and months does have a taming effect. Besides I am not sure which fingers you use to type but I use one and it’s rather disheartening to spend half an hour writing a reply to see it obliterated in half a second. So one must exercise care, even though we have not yet entered the age of asceticism.

I didn't say Hariri or Junblat will be the armed ones fighting any attempt to naturalize the Palestinians for you to remind me of what Rashid Karame did . If I were to come to an understanding with another group of Lebanese, there would be explicit items of agreement that I could declare explicitly and implicit ones that would remain undeclared or maybe just hinted at through other items... The right to vote for expatriates, for example, would definitely be one of the explicitly declared items. But who am I after all... I can't sign such understandings.

Let’s forget about statues. May you live 5 years longer than what the patriarch does. 105 years aint too bad and don’t be too greedy now.
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Back to the less serious issues now. You seem to conveniently accentuate the topic of naturalisation while ignoring the underlying reasoning for my argument and that is the viability of the Lebanese state itself. It’s here where you and I have our first major point of difference. You think <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place>Lebanon</st1:place></st1:country-region> is a viable state and you are doing your best to make sure it is and I think it’s not and you are fighting a lost cause.
If I may here clarify a point. Giving citizenship to the Palestinians is a question of law decided by an act of parliament. Knowing how the overwhelming majority of parliamentarians are not exactly men of principle, I wouldn’t put it past them. Whether they enact this law or not, I don’t know. They have done worse things before and that is a fact. The important question to me though is whether the Palestinians are going to stay in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Lebanon</st1:place></st1:country-region> or not. In this respect I don’t think they are going anywhere, and better yet, there is no will powerful enough in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Lebanon</st1:place></st1:country-region> to send them anywhere. For now forget about <st1:country-region><st1:place>Canada</st1:place></st1:country-region>, the <st1:country-region><st1:place>USA</st1:place></st1:country-region>, and <st1:country-region><st1:place>Australia</st1:place></st1:country-region>. These countries did not get to where they are because of some emotional decisions.
Insofar as Lebanese powers are concerned:
Hariri is a business man and as such his main concern is profit. At least for his group, a prosperous <st1:country-region><st1:place>Lebanon</st1:place></st1:country-region> is to his business advantage. The Palestinians are his reserve defensive army should the situation in <st1:country-region><st1:place>Lebanon</st1:place></st1:country-region> go the Iraqi way as it will inevitably do. So it’s not to his interest to send the Palestinians anywhere nor to disarm them. Besides the remark about Rashid karami was not accidental.
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As for Jumblatt, He is too unpredictable to make it so easy to know what he is doing next. His only passion is to kill Christians. Other than that he is happy playing a parasite and the political Lebanese game offers the prefect arena for that. Time and time again he’s proved that he does it better than anyone else. ( Hence the advantage of having malleable beliefs). So for him, as long as someone else takes the blame for cruel decisions such as deporting the Palestinians he is happy to accept the status quo and keep them as his henchmen for the next inevitable killing round. On top of that you have this inexhaustible reserve of Arabism rhetoric that one must keep for the right moment. For fun, have a read of this current tit for tat exchange going on between Wi’am wahhab and Eljouzou. Having Arabism rhetoric to tap into at any time is simply too irresistible and I must admit nowadays it’s the only thing worth reading in Annahar.
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That leaves us with your IF and the other Lebanese group that you hope it will be on your side to fight naturalisation. Here is where we drastically differ in our opinions as we enter the world of mysticism and inscrutability, the world of secrets and lies, of imponderables and speculation where the odds of being wrong are equal to those of being right. To that other group Lebanon is an incidental matter. It only participates in it so it would keep pace with the carving up of spoils that Lebanese politicians spend their best years doing. To this particular group Lebanese prosperity or even the Lebanese state are irrelevant. It has bigger fish to fry and armed Palestinians fit perfectly in its strategic thinking.
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That leaves you to fight your battle alone, thinking of history as events with isolated consequences rather than a trend with predictable outcomes.
Amirkani, when one stands in the floodlights as we do now while Aoun is around, one is tempted to take a particular situation for an everlasting universal truth. There is always the risk of 7sab l 7a’el to turn out different from 7sab l baydar. Neither you nor I have the power to predict the future but you and I both are both capable of reading history, be it a trend or an event. In here I might ask you why Bkerkeh so strongly opposes Aoun. Could it be that the Patriarch is incapable of reading the political scene or because it knows very well that Aoun is a fad and, like me, it thinks that the country it helped create has no hope in hell in surviving in its current shape..

[taifoon]

Hi shadow, nice to hear the lounge has a spa effect on you.. I wish we had means to enforce a visit there on our clergy, at least once a week, after friday and sunday prayers..

Originally Posted by shadow1.

In here I might ask you why Bkerkeh so strongly opposes Aoun. Could it be that the Patriarch is incapable of reading the political scene or because it knows very well that Aoun is a fad and, like me, it thinks that the country it helped create has no hope in hell in surviving in its current shape

Don't you think you are slightly exagerating our lebanese Batraks super natural and divine abilities here? Isn't it also possible that his ability of clear judgment and reasoning might, humanly enough, got obscured by fear of loosing influence and dimmed by the immediate urge to survive as authority as secular ghosts start to form into real shapes and forms on his own backyard? No more, no less?

Could it also be that the chain of past events up until this very second, which some choose to call our lebanese history while others, you, choose to call trend, has helped saturate us with the ensight of condemnation to the point that we, including our communities arche fan bearers, the clergy class, no longer are able to beleive that we ourselves can influence the course of our future anymore, thus further accentuating the sense of dejection and resignation and ultimately drive the cynicals, the blinded and those with little hope left into whatever inevitable desperate ends and solutions seem to be left to choose from?

To state it forward, from my little perspective the equation looks as follows:
We exist, christians, muslims and druze on a common spot surrounded with vast raging uncertainities. Each community has its own ba3ba3s, both imaginary and real ones..
Separating those communities from each other now will actually end up only increasing their number of ba3ba3s respectively, to not mention the costs in sufferings and miseries we will have to pay for such detachements. Joining them together, in something more advanced and smart than Taif, will help decrease those fears. The trick is making this message come through, to later implement it on the hands of decent folks..

Sometimes bowing for what we call 'reality' is one way to fend off its blows, ducking is another, ostriching is yet anoter.. Facing and fighting it back is also another technic which sometimes helps redefining it.

[shadow1]

Let me welcome you back to the forum after such a long abscence. Dont tell me now you were coming here at night, in the dark and I have been missing it.

Originally Posted by taifoon

Don't you think you are slightly exagerating our lebanese Batraks super natural and divine abilities here? Isn't it also possible that his ability of clear judgment and reasoning might, humanly enough, got obscured by fear of loosing influence and dimmed by the immediate urge to survive as authority as secular ghosts start to form into real shapes and forms on his own backyard? No more, no less?

When I first saw your quote my initial reaction was that I may have been misquoted. But no, i screwed up my sentence big time so your tirade against the patriarch was the result of an error on my part. I meant to say Bkerkeh in that sentence.
Like you I have never been a fan of this Patriarch. Aa a matter of fact I never liked the lebanese Christian clergy ever and the last patriach I liked ruled in 1812 while Napoleon was at the gates of Moscow. But in fairness to Bkerkeh, they may not be endowed with super natural powers and yes they are not infallible, but they play the Lebanese political game according the Lebanese politics rules. Until these rules are changed, you can dismiss them at your own cost.

Could it also be that the chain of past events up until this very second, which some choose to call our lebanese history while others, you, choose to call trend, has helped saturate us with the ensight of condemnation to the point that we, including our communities arche fan bearers, the clergy class, no longer are able to beleive that we ourselves can influence the course of our future anymore, thus further accentuating the sense of dejection and resignation and ultimately drive the cynicals, the blinded and those with little hope left into whatever inevitable desperate ends and solutions seem to be left to choose from?

Why is it that everyone is so willing to ignore history so easily thinking that they are capable of changing it while that same bloody history repeats itself with monotonous regualrity. Looking at Lebanon now, are you telling me that it is better than what it was 20 years ago? looking at it 20 years ago was the situation then better than what it was 20 years earlier? And so on and so forth. And why should I believe that 20 years from now it's going to be better from today? The trend is downhill for a very valid reason and not because the Gods of the Lebanese decided to fight with each other. Why is it so hard to see that lebanon is an artifical state that has miserably failed in blending in its inhabitants in a coherent nationalistic way? What makes you think that the future, intentions not withstanding, is really going to be any better when society gorws more divided by the day, more militaristic by the hour and the Cedar revolution that created this false hope for the Lebanese turned out to be no more than an exhibition of theatrics saved from its superficiality by the confluence of American and French interests with those of soem ( and I stress some) of the Lebanese. Allegiance to Lebanon is only an allegiance to that particular idea each has of that Lebanon and it is secondary to allegiance to sect and religion or even ethnicity if you like.

To state it forward, from my little perspective the equation looks as follows:
We exist, christians, muslims and druze on a common spot surrounded with vast raging uncertainities. Each community has its own ba3ba3s, both imaginary and real ones.. Separating those communities from each other now will actually end up only increasing their number of ba3ba3s respectively, to not mention the costs in sufferings and miseries we will have to pay for such detachements.

I never disagreed with you on this point. But the fact remains that each time foreign powers loosen their grip on us we slaughter each other. So peace in Lebanon is Istira7at L mou7areb.

Joining them together, in something more advanced and smart than Taif, will help decrease those fears. The trick is making this message come through, to later implement it on the hands of decent folks..

How in the name of God do you intend on doing this when the country gets more fragmented by the day. Our leaders just had a meeting and nearly shot each other lawla l3eyb wil 7aya. It's either our choice of leaders is inherently flawed or we are.
We are not here disputing concepts or ideas, we are talking about a reality on the ground. The choice is not between good and bad but between possible and probable at the very best. Now sure if you make all the right assupmtions you end up with a perfect equation. Sadly taifoon, we are too backward as a nation to deserve democracy. If we did we'd put all these contentious issues to vote so they can be settled one way or another. In the absence of such rare display of honesty we can only weave whichever world suits whichever desires we have for whichever period of time it takes us to wander in wonderland.

Sometimes bowing for what we call 'reality' is one way to fend off its blows, ducking is another, ostriching is yet anoter.. Facing and fighting it back is also another technic which sometimes helps redefining it.

And sometime simagining things that only exist in our wishes ( and more often than not imposed and specifically-tailored-for-us wishes) carries too much risk. I leave heroism to the heros.

[taifoon]

Originally Posted by Bullet Magnet;

How would naturalizing the Palestinian in Lebanon solve the middle east crisis? ... or exacerbate it?

If the middle east crisis was a cat, we may currently be at the third or fourth of its consumed lives and there are still few more ones to go through.. What is more 'naturalizing' than having housed the palestinians for more than 50 years with no clear prospects for them to, any soon, pack back into their homeland? Their direct and active engagement in our civilwar was meant as the prelude to solving this crisis by offering them a new abandonned land. This approach did not work, and the crisis of the middle east was neither calmed nor aggravated by our internal miseries. By design of history and geography we happen to stand on the threshold of a push and pull doorway, no matter on which leg we stand or which shoulder we lean on, we will be hit by others passing by. Our only refuge and security lies in maintaining our unity so we can allways stand firm on both legs and with fortified shoulders deny trespassers a free entry.

But with the right price in $, everything could be negotiable though, and three more generations from now, no one would bother ask if your friends grand grand daughters fiance was a 'true' or naturalized lebanese, when the honey and milk will be flowing onto our dinner tables and nearly everyone is Gigabit connected. Money will hence make the difference, and the lack of it will allways place our butts on the opening of a vulcano waiting to spew us up sky high.

So, to conclude and answer your tricky question Bullet: Naturalization with Money - a lot of it - could help solve our part of the MEA crisis. Without it, it will only consume few more of that cats remaining lives.. But then, few would barely notice it, since this is how we normally have been living since more than 30 years.

[taifoon]

Originally Posted by shadow

But in fairness to Bkerkeh, they may not be endowed with super natural powers and yes they are not infallible, but they play the Lebanese political game according the Lebanese politics rules. Until these rules are changed, you can dismiss them at your own cost.

Even if i'd love to, it is usually counter productiv to try dismiss someone whose life engine is fueled mainly by divine liquids: They should be handeled with extreme care. More than on the lebanese political game, i'd rather put the blame on the average citizens inability to break free, crushed as he/she is under powerfull religious spells accumulated during centuries. It is due to their magic grip on the hearts of our people, clergy kan still manipulate those minds and accordingly feel safe behind those lines of defenses, being those peoples blinded beleifs in those clergicals unquestionable wisdom.
This i think you know even better than i do.

Originally Posted by shadow

Why is it that everyone is so willing to ignore history so easily thinking that they are capable of changing it while that same bloody history repeats itself with monotonous regualrity. Looking at Lebanon now, are you telling me that it is better than what it was 20 years ago? looking at it 20 years ago was the situation then better than what it was 20 years earlier? And so on and so forth. And why should I believe that 20 years from now it's going to be better from today? The trend is downhill for a very valid reason and not because the Gods of the Lebanese decided to fight with each other.

Ignoring history could be as fatal a mistake as declaring its absolut supremecy over finalizing a still unwritten chapter in its book, namely some future. The duality of the notion of History is an interesting subject which needs own thread. Even though it is usually judged relatively to a current perspective in present time, its static nature - due to already established events and facts - is powerfull enough to continueously keep influencing current ones, thereof its double face and its dynamic nature and hence the 'trend' we also use to describe it as.. And as a trend being an ongoing state of events it is also subject to various dynamic forces which mostly we, the humans, play a major part in.
shadow, the world is slowly moving forward, although true we barely notice it inside our cycle of miseries. But even inside that closed circle, small unnoticed evolvements are made: A new generation is allways stepping forward.
And what help are we offering ourselves if we keep beleiving that we have nothing to contribute with to the next and still unwritten chapter V in our history book before it is finalized for printing?

Originally Posted by shadow

How in the name of God do you intend on doing this when the country gets more fragmented by the day. Our leaders just had a meeting and nearly shot each other lawla l3eyb wil 7aya. It's either our choice of leaders is inherently flawed or we are.
We are not here disputing concepts or ideas, we are talking about a reality on the ground. The choice is not between good and bad but between possible and probable at the very best. Now sure if you make all the right assupmtions you end up with a perfect equation. Sadly taifoon, we are too backward as a nation to deserve democracy. If we did we'd put all these contentious issues to vote so they can be settled one way or another. In the absence of such rare display of honesty we can only weave whichever world suits whichever desires we have for whichever period of time it takes us to wander in wonderland.

I am sorry that my first reply actually had to take us both to the same recurring spot and subject you and i usually end up at, namely what alternatives can we lebanese benefit the most from, being in our present te3tir condition: Shall we keep whining about it, shall we reject it through denials, shall we accept it as our precompiled destiny, or shall we try to offer the best suitable solutions? I see the old Jeajea/Bkerkeh and new Hariri/Joumblat axis of unflexible dreams being just as murky as insecure and dangerous as HAs fatal mistakes (although HAs late awakening hopefully holds brighter promises).. If you ask me what about FPM i'd say: They at least have openly and straightforwardly declared their objectives since many years: An independant, free, united, secular, and corruptionless final watan for all lebanese. Although quite dandy and impossible this sound, they simply offer an uncomplicated set of ideas that practically also can be implemented without constituting at the same time any immediate or far threats to any specific species (ehm..community) as such (of course besides haunting some clergical and feudal a**es). In this context i pass you back the question, shadow: Why in the name of God not try promote the least harmfull ideas but instead dismiss them as non practical and impossible to implement? I agree a shortcut to paradise would be to send a phara'aonian curse from the darkest still unexplored egyptian grave which in one blow sweeps away this current dull leader pack and leave us with few honest ones.. Instead of frequenting the lounge maybe we should put some more efforts in voodoo technics.

[Bullet Magnet]

Originally Posted by taifoon

Naturalization with Money - a lot of it - could help solve our part of the MEA crisis. Without it, it will only consume few more of that cats remaining lives.. But then, few would barely notice it, since this is how we normally have been living since more than 30 years.

interesting lead taifoon as usual.....can you lead us down the $ path towards the solution?

thanks,

[taifoon]

Originally Posted by Bullet Magnet

interesting lead taifoon as usual.....can you lead us down the $ path towards the solution?

thanks,

Hi Bullet, and much kind of you, but i doubt i could contribute with more than the following:

There is no power we dispose of that could force those people back to their counrty, with less than bringing some, if not all, of us to some deadly end.
They are de facto naturalized, but not officially.

We live in a poor country with no assets worth mentioning, except the human ones. We are burdened by a relatively huge debt which will enslave us for generations to come and big part of our population is already feeling the sharp edge of poverty on its throat, with increased social and political frustration and unrest in an overall boiling situation. Our natural resources, what could be our future salvation both economically and mentally, are slowly dying before our eyes.

We also know that in this specific time, huge dynamic forces are on the move, an untamed jinny has in fact started to rise out of its bottle: The sectarian-political tension between Iran/KSA/Israel salted and peppered with NUCS, with Syria, palestinians, Lebanon and probably soon also Jordan on a corner of that conflict, all either directly involved or through proxies, best manifested through the battleground of a dying Iraq.. Deliberatly induced or not has little if any significance anymore. How long will this evolving situation last and where shall it end? No one knows.

What healthy options are we left with then? Only long lasting peace among ourselves first and formost, and if possible, negotiate forward a high price, say 200 billion $ or at least half that sum, for officially integrating those people would be the best we can get. We would pay off our debt, significally improve those peoples conditions thus slowly help them move from dispair to hope, repatriate them, help improve the overall economy from northest north to southest south, go for peace with Israel and Syria.

Prerequisites for all that to succeed? A whole new political and social system, something beyond Taif and sectarian distribution of power.

Who would pay? Let the interested in saving their butts start the collection:
KSA, Iran, the europeans, and even the americo-israelis might be interested.
Does this make any sense? To me maybe, as a wishfull thinking but in fact hardly to any of the mentioned above, since they all work hard on making us swallow their bull, for free, beleiving they are immun to any consequences of such further messing up.

I hope someone, at the right time and place will at least ask for the right price, before inviting, because we do not want after all to be a free lunch.