Solving the middle east problem: naturalizing the palestinians

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

Don't worry, I am fit enough to survive. You won't need to erect a statue in my memory.

So your heroics were just a bluff then. Good to know that when the sword gets closer to the neck, common sense prevails.

It might be unavoidable in general but it ain't happening in Lebanon unless you build a statue for me.

You said you didn't need a statue. Not to worry, living in the collective consciousness of a suicidal people is just as great.

I am afraid your compatriots will soon have to give up a few acres from the kangaroo kingdom, the Americans will have to do with a few less bald eagles, the Canadians will have to give up a few hockey ice rinks and, the Arabs will have to drill a few more oil wells and, last but not least, the Israelis will have to give in to the idea of viable Palestinian statehood.

It would be a good idea if we left our respective compatriots out of it. Some of them live in thick-glass houses and some in thinner ones. But I am afraid giving up the habitat of the bald eagle is way too high a price to pay especially coming on top of you asking us to give up our human values. The Israelis will give up the west bank and Gaza, but whether it's enough to create a viable state or not is really doubtful. Look at the quasi state they have now and how they are tearing each other to threads. But that's their problem and the Canadians, the Americans and the Australians are not going to rush to help Lebanon by importing into their own land what might 200 years down the line be regarded as a fatal mistake.

Humanity? Isn't it the survival of the fittest? We just make sure we can influence the situation. And who said armed Lebanese will accept the naturalization of the Palestinians?

These armed Lebanese will settle their religious scores before they even lay a finger on the Palestinians. You may have been too young to remember Rashid Karami choosing the destruction of Lebanon over touching the Palestinians. And then we had a civil war, on whose side may I ask you did Compatriots stand? And even today strong forces inside Lebanon strongly opposed disarming the Palestinians and would rather send the country to hell than collecting their arms.

So the problem itsnt really my or your compatriots, it's rather ours. A sober reading of the situation clearly indicates that no one is going to give up any arms, and most definitely not the Palestinians. Armed Lebanese (whoever is implied in here) may not accept naturalisation but wow wow wow you talk as if you are a stranger to Jerusalem. Since when do the Lebanese decide anything of any significance in their country?

[Bullet Magnet]

Thanks for the many posts. Most of us get so emotional about this issue that we're forgetting the question. It's not if the naturalisation will happen, should happen or can happen? It's rather IF it happens, will it solve OR rather exacerbate the existing problem?

In other words, the US, Israel and some other Western countries seem to push for naturalization as a way to get a Middle East Peace. But will naturalization lead to peace? i.e.
a) will the naturalized palestinians forget about their homes in 7aifa, safad and kods?
b) will Israel suddenly become a dove?
c) will a framented west bank/gaza strip be a viable entity?
d) will Lebanon be a stable entity?
e) will Syria become a dove?
etc. etc. etc.

[Hye4Lebanon]

My guess would be,

The Palestinian population in Syria may want the same for them. Syrian government may be in Jeopody

The Lebanese demographics will change, election results may differ. Someone running for a "Lets Liberate Jerusalem" he/she may get elected.

[orangekid]

i am not scared from the naturalization of Palestinians in Lebanon from a religious point of view but it is rather economical due to the high density of population in Lebanon

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by Bullet Magnet

Thanks for the many posts. Most of us get so emotional about this issue that we're forgetting the question. It's not if the naturalisation will happen, should happen or can happen? It's rather IF it happens, will it solve OR rather exacerbate the existing problem?

In other words, the US, Israel and some other Western countries seem to push for naturalization as a way to get a Middle East Peace. But will naturalization lead to peace? i.e.

Naturalisation on its own is not a sufficient criterion for peace but a necessary one. It may lessen the impact of the right of return and make compensation when coupled with a passport an acceptable and somehow just outcome for those who wish to take them up. It might also relieve the pressure off The proposed areas for a Palestinian state in terms of population density in an environment with limited natural resources.

a) will the naturalized palestinians forget about their homes in 7aifa, safad and kods?

Some will most definitely. As Lebanese we have a perfect model to look at. First generation migrants will experience a sense of loss no matter what. However once they die out, nostalgia and even injustice are mitigated by the passing of time and the new reality that people have to look forward and adapt to. In this new world of globalisation and fast travel people are less ideologically prone, save for the fanatics.

b) will Israel suddenly become a dove?

No. Israel cannot be a dove and expect to survive in this part of the world. Its problem is not only with Arab Palestinians, it has a larger problem with Islam itself. Now how this problem might be resolved in a way to makeIsrael a dove, I am not sure it can ever happen. A perfect example of that is why Muslim Iran holds this animosity towards Israel while Mulism Turkey doesnt. So the answer lies in how Islam is managed in the muslim states. A more practical answer would be to survey the people of some of the muslim nations with which Isreal has dimplomatic relations and see how ordinary people feel about Israel. That alone can determine how Israel might behave.

c) will a framented west bank/gaza strip be a viable entity?

In time they will evolve into two different states. My crystal ball tells me the West bank and Jordan will make one state and Gaza and Egypt will make another.

d) will Lebanon be a stable entity?

The Palestinian problem is only one aspect of the Lebanese problem. So with or without naturalisation Lebanon will never be a stable nation. Lebanon's problem is that basically it has no national identity beyond the folkloric. As such it is inherently flawed. Ironically, naturalisation of Palestinians might be an element of stability overall in spite of the fact that such fundamental change may produce its own winners and losers. As non law abiding citizens, existing in thourougly corrupt system, the Lebanese can only find peace under a dictatorship.That is unlikely under local governership. Will Syria absorb Lebanon with a consolation prize for Israel eventually? Most likely.

e) will Syria become a dove?

It will be the most beneficiary of any peace in the Mddle East. It can then redirect its resources towards improving the lot of its citizens. Relative to its population the palestinians do not make up a large portion like, say lebanon or Jordan.

[WiseCookie]

If we're going to talk about the west wanting to naturalize the Palestinians to sovle the middle-eastern crisis. Then first of all, it is not up to them to tell us how to solve the Palestinians issue in Lebanon.

Second, if they feel like naturalizing the palestinians would solve the problem, then they're most welcome to take the palestinians and naturalize them in their countries and not in Lebanon.

The Palestinans have constantly defied the Lebanese authority and who is to say they won't defy it as "Lebanese" citizens. A piece of paper does not change anybody's identity, and it will keep Lebanon rapped up in the Arab-Israeli struggle for no good reason.

Third, in an economy that is already suffering from severe problems, the last thing u need is to add 500,000 people to the equation.

Fourth, having them forcefully naturalized will come against the will of the majority of the Lebanese people, and if not the majority then a big portion of them and that will create instability. Starting from myself, I take the palestinian naturalization issue seriously, and would fight it to the last moment. It's not an issue that you can't be emotional about. The Palestinians have a bloody history in Lebanon and have showed how they can turn the Lebanese against each other.

Ceasefire for Arafat anyone ?

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by shadow1

So your heroics were just a bluff then. Good to know that when the sword gets closer to the neck, common sense prevails.

You seem to be losing your sense of cynicism... not good... you become ordinary. Basically I am telling you it will only happen "over my dead body" but I have full confidence that "I am fit enough to survive"... so you ought to have deduced that I am telling you it won't happen because this is an issue that will be fought against ferociously by many Lebanese. That simple.

Originally Posted by shadow1

You said you didn't need a statue. Not to worry, living in the collective consciousness of a suicidal people is just as great.

A statue is for the dead. I am alive and kicking. Suicidal tendencies were never part of my characteristics and I do condemn them as an immoral waste. Now fighting for survival is a whole different story and this is what a large chunk of the Lebanese would do to prevent the naturalization of Palestinians in Lebanon.

Originally Posted by shadow1

It would be a good idea if we left our respective compatriots out of it. Some of them live in thick-glass houses and some in thinner ones. But I am afraid giving up the habitat of the bald eagle is way too high a price to pay especially coming on top of you asking us to give up our human values. The Israelis will give up the west bank and Gaza, but whether it's enough to create a viable state or not is really doubtful. Look at the quasi state they have now and how they are tearing each other to threads. But that's their problem and the Canadians, the Americans and the Australians are not going to rush to help Lebanon by importing into their own land what might 200 years down the line be regarded as a fatal mistake.

Since you don't like cynicism anymore, let me give it to you straight. That Resolution circulating in Congress is being countered by another (at the request of the Lebanese in the US) calling for any of the countries wanting to relieve Israel of its responsibility (and burden) to step up to the plate and shoulder part of that responsibility... what's another 75k able bodies to the US? Peanuts. As for Australia and Canada, 100k each might create an economic boom in certain areas... Iraq has already lost 200k... why not replenish that reservoir and have the Gulf states pay for housing them and feeding for a few years until they settle down and become productive again? Again, the Lebanese will fight inside and outside to prevent any attempt of naturalizing the Palestinians in Lebanon, and I am confident that we can prevent it... just so I relieve you of the duty of erecting a statue for me.

Originally Posted by shadow1

You may have been too young to remember Rashid Karami choosing the destruction of Lebanon over touching the Palestinians.

Thanks for the compliment... I do take good care of my complexion and use expensive skin products to stay looking young.

I didn't say Hariri or Junblat will be the armed ones fighting any attempt to naturalize the Palestinians for you to remind me of what Rashid Karame did . If I were to come to an understanding with another group of Lebanese, there would be explicit items of agreement that I could declare explicitly and implicit ones that would remain undeclared or maybe just hinted at through other items... The right to vote for expatriates, for example, would definitely be one of the explicitly declared items. But who am I after all... I can't sign such understandings.

Originally Posted by Bullet Magnet

Thanks for the many posts. Most of us get so emotional about this issue that we're forgetting the question. It's not if the naturalisation will happen, should happen or can happen? It's rather IF it happens, will it solve OR rather exacerbate the existing problem?

Bullet, I do try to stick to the topic and answer the question directly... I did it in my first post below...

Originally Posted by Amirkani

Any blanket process to naturalize the Palestinians in Lebanon will perpetuate the conflict within Lebanon as well as with the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves... and it will even exacerbate the conflict not just perpetuate it. It will be an open conflict with no holds barred.

I, for sure, will stop at nothing to try to prevent it as will many others. This is one thing about which I can easily say "over my dead body".

But it's hard to keep emotions out of an expanded analysis and debate... I am Lebanese after all, and debating other Lebanese. However, the mere presence of high emotions in our debate is also an answer in itself to your question... high emotions are quite indicative that the problem would be exacerbated, not solved.

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[forward_vision]

Amerikani,

In the end your strategy is about putting your head in the sand and about wishful thinking. The Candians will take the Palestinians? Sure, if each family invests $200,000 for five years. The Sadr militia are going to invite 200,000 Palestinians to Iraq? Only to their funeral. Wishful thinking never solves problems. Saying what should be instead of looking reality in the face never helps.

The Palestinians have been in Lebanon 3 generations. In 25 years, almost all the Palestinians will have been born in Lebanon. The more the problem festers, the bigger the blow up. My solution of granting the option to every Palestinian born from today the option (no forcing) at age 18 to decide if he becomes a citizen makes a lot of sense. The Palestinians will be naturalized slowly over several generations and the process will give hope to them and show that there is goodwill on the Lebanese side.

[CitizenOfTheRepublic]

As an emigrant, I am actually appalled at even bringing up the subject.

Before thinking about adding new citizens, how about you take care of your own instead of pushing them to emigrate?

As is the country is not able to cater for its own citizens. You consider a solution increasing its burden?

[hassanleb]

I fail to see how naturalizing the palestinians in lebanon will help in resolving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israelis and palestinians will be fighting for a very long time.

And for the people who are saying that naturalizing palestinians is unavoidable. I'll say we have options to deal with the palestinian issue.

Instead of propgating false promises forever such as the right of return, we can be frank with the palestinians about the issue and work to convince them that the right of return is an illusion, and that they will never be able to go back to palestine.

We can formulate a plan to gradually transfer the palestinians out of lebanon. With an active and determinant foreign policy on our part, we can secure visas for thousands of palestinians to Europe, North America, Australia, Latin America, Gulf countries.. We only have around 350,000 palestinians, if we're able to transfer only 20,000 palestinians a year out of lebanon, in 20 years the palestinian problem will be resolved.

This issue is solvable if we have the will to solve it. Hopefully FPM will push for a plan to resolve this problem.