Solving the middle east problem: naturalizing the palestinians - Page 2 - The Orange Room

FutureLebanon

The palestinians in lebanon will not be nationalized. End of story, pure and simple.

METALLICA

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Originally Posted by FutureLebanon

The palestinians in lebanon will not be nationalized. End of story, pure and simple.

The palestinians in lebanon will be nationalized. End of story, also pure and simple.
And also without anything to back it up [Did I miss the saintly text?]

shadow1

Naturalising the Palestinians is not an option but an inevitability. The longer it's resisted, the longer the conflict drags on. Let's face it, The right of return is the stickiest point in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel is not about to allow more palestinians to move in that is if it does not do the right thing by its jewish ideology and expel the arabs who already live within its borders proper. If it does not do so It, itself, faces extinction is less than a hundred years. So why allow these people to live in squalid conditions forever. Therefore from a humane side, naturalising the palestinians should be considered.

Now insofar as Lebanon is considered, the issue should not be approached from a sectarian ground. No one is interested in hearing it from this side outside the small minority christians. Realistically speaking, this sort of approach draws no sympathy from the godless West and even more hatred from the godful east. So the christians in lebanon should use whatever little influence they have left over policiy making in Lebanon to tackle the issue from:

1- Humanitarian ground: It's a shame to keep the Palestinians in Lebanon living in their little leper colonies for ever. It's already far too long and most of these people are connected to Palestine by name only, all silly rhetoric aside. Once upon the times and before the Paletinian took their destiny in their hand they were the most educated people in the middle East. They could do so again and become more productive individulas in society instead of facing mental death in the camps.

2- Environmental: The country is already one of the most densely popultated places on earth. With its water resources dwindling and mismanaged, it can hardly provide water to its indigenous population let alone an additional half a million people. ( as a side note, with the rain being so abundant this year, maybe global warming could be beneficial to Lebanon, let's keep our fingers crossed even though this whole point here may be useless)

3- Economic: Thanks to the country belligerent tendencies, poverty is here to stay. So there will be more and more people fighting at the lowest end of the economic scale. In some ultra parochial places, jobs should be reserved for the indigenous population. Therefore having more people fighting for the crumbs left over by politicians makes social conditions quite dreadful and add much more pressure on an already tight labour market.

There is always the option of another civil war which might result in another half a million people deciding they have had enough sitting on a volcano and they might do the right thing by their children and head west.

As it's now between Zahrani and Aley there are tens of towns which are more like ghost towns. The owners of the land there are only too happy to sell and migrate. Allowing the palestinians to purchase their land is a better outcome than having it taken from them by force for nothing. I think, for once, Bkerkeh should intervene on the side of its flock and do the right thing for them.

I know there are many Lebanese outside with strong Lobbying power. They can lobby their respective governments to take in more Lebanese. I know we have done it successfully for the people in my home town. Every summer we send our ugliest around the world to marry the prettiest there. And whoever is left will have their turn the year after or fall prey to natural attrition. Now the town is best described by a Fairouz song:
Tor'aat ma 3leiyha 7ada
we byout sakinha L sada

So there is a practical solution for the Paletinians in Lebanon and beneficial to everyone except Dory Cham3oun.
Overall we are only upholding the age old chemical equation: Rien ne se perd, rien no se gagne, tout se transforme. ( excuse my French)

forward_vision

A certain population P lives for 3 generations in a country and is treated as second class citizens. They are denied basic rights because a minority of them committed very grave crimes against the rest of the population.

The majority of the P's ask the rest, please allow us to be naturalized. The rest say no, you were very bad. They say ok, then make only our children citizens, they were not bad and will be able to have a better life than ours.
Still the rest of the population says "Over my dead body, go back to your original land." The P's say we want to and when we do, our children will give back their citizenship or at worst will have dual citizenship like many other people. But why should more generations of P's suffer? We are very weak and cannot return to our land because of an oppersor. Still the rest of the population says, "Over my dead body."

What conclusion would you reach about the general population the P's live in?

1) Are they immoral and support collective punishment?
2) Do they believe there is something inherently bad about P children and are therfore racists?
3) Do they view the P's as objects in a conflict with their enemies instead of treating P's as humans?
4) Why would they rather kill than see P's children having a better life?

Most of you will say, the "situation is complicated". It surely is, but that is never a reason to act immorally.

My suggestion: From today, any Palestinian born in Lebanon will have the option at age 18 to decide if he wants to become a Lebanese citizen. Simple, fair and forward looking.

Lebanese_uk

why should we naturalise the palestinians?

We cannot even deal with our own population.

If the saudis love Lebanon so much they should take the palestinians. It wont make a difference to saudi demographics and they have plenty of money. We dont want their money.

Omega80

Bullet Magnet,

Maybe there is no solution to the Middle East crisis. After reading this part of a recent article, it got me thinking:

"The Palestinians are not the victims of empire, but rather the remnants of a defeated empire that cannot admit to its defeat without accepting final and complete deracination. They cannot help but return to the chant they raised when Iraqi Scud missiles hit Tel Aviv in 1990: "The Jews are our dogs." No viable economic basis exists for a state of 5 million Palestinians without massive subsidies from the West, and the Palestinians have voted emphatically against becoming the subsidized dogs of the US and the European Union. "

The author is basically trying to say that the Palestinians are doomed to eventual destruction. Therefore, naturalization may solve the issue of the Palestinians outside the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, but not those in those territories.

Amirkani

Quote:

Originally Posted by forward_vision

A certain population P lives for 3 generations in a country and is treated as second class citizens. They are denied basic rights because a minority of them committed very grave crimes against the rest of the population.

The majority of the P's ask the rest, please allow us to be naturalized. The rest say no, you were very bad. They say ok, then make only our children citizens, they were not bad and will be able to have a better life than ours.
Still the rest of the population says "Over my dead body, go back to your original land." The P's say we want to and when we do, our children will give back their citizenship or at worst will have dual citizenship like many other people. But why should more generations of P's suffer? We are very weak and cannot return to our land because of an oppersor. Still the rest of the population says, "Over my dead body."

What conclusion would you reach about the general population the P's live in?

1) Are they immoral and support collective punishment?
2) Do they believe there is something inherently bad about P children and are therfore racists?
3) Do they view the P's as objects in a conflict with their enemies instead of treating P's as humans?
4) Why would they rather kill than see P's children having a better life?

Most of you will say, the "situation is complicated". It surely is, but that is never a reason to act immorally.

My suggestion: From today, any Palestinian born in Lebanon will have the option at age 18 to decide if he wants to become a Lebanese citizen. Simple, fair and forward looking.

"Over my dead body..." sure, I said that and I sincerely mean it. "...go back to your original land" is something you concocted and attributed to those who didn't say it.

Let's not mix the issues here... ensuring humane and decent living conditions for the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, naturalizing all of them wholesale in Lebanon, and sharing the responsibilities of providing them with a viable travel document are completely different issues.

Laws of nature have thus far dictated that Lebanon send emigrants to the world in order to sustain itself, not take in immigrants from the rest of the world.

What is immoral is for someone like me to hear arrogant Israelis (and full-bellied Westerners more concerned about preserving green pastures for their cows and vast enough wild preserves for their eagles and kangaroos) casually giving the Lebanese a lesson in morality by pretending to be concerned with the well-being of the Palestinians. The West and Israel created this human catastrophe and they are the ones who should (and will be forced to) shoulder the bulk of the responsibility in redressing it. And you know what? They can do it without feeling any negative effect; many of them would even benefit from added human resources.

As for Israel, what an arrogant attitude to dump its "racial" concerns on the Lebanese or even the rest of the world!

Lebanon cannot sustain more than 10-15% of its Palestinian refugee population and, yes over my dead body, shall it take in more than that... and those it takes have to fall into the strict category of self-sustaining providers to the Lebanese society rather than the ones to be sustained by the already in-need Lebanese society.

Morality? It's quite relative of a notion... it depends on who's benefiting and who's paying the price.

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shadow1

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Originally Posted by Amirkani

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Morality? It's quite relative of a notion... it depends on who's benefiting and who's paying the price.

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Morality has never been the issue. Amongst nations it has always been the survival of the fittest. Even in Lebanon today, it is about that though the survival of the fittest may take on a more sinister outlook.

If this thing is going to happen over your dead body, have you made sure that there will be someone left behind to honour such nobility with appropriate statues and yearly commemorations? I am afraid naturalisation is unavoidable. The west wants to keep them there not because it's moral or not moral but simply because it is clever enough, and powerful enough, to keep trouble somewhere else whereas the Lebanese import it from anywhere they could. Victimhood is such an unbelievable game when domination is the ultimate goal, and sadly for some, survival.

Amirkani, your indignation is quite understandable, and we all occasionally suffer from these nightmares too but what Lebanese government has ever made the slightest effort to at least mitigate the effect of these "immigrants" presence on Lebanon? And do you honestly believe that any one is likely to succeed in the future even if it musters the good intentions to do it. And what happens in the meantime? Do we sacrifice our values and our humanity and become like those countries around us simply because we cant influence the situation beyond wishing it to change.

FYI, there are no reserves for Kangaroos, they have a vast continent to roam and a population that respect their need to do so. Isnt that more sightly than having concrete jungles from the sea to the mountains and children that kill birds and chop down trees for the hell of it?

Amirkani

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