Reality Slap!

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Diabolo SLAP or not, this is the reality of the independent voter:

Well before the elections, most independents understood Jumblat's flipfloping and expected as much. Most independents understood that Hezbollah is the de facto military ruler of Lebanon and will not be disarmed by force. Most independents knew very well that Berri will be the speaker. Most independents understood that Hariri won't be the savior, and LF isn't mother Mary. Most didn't expect radical change in the Hezbollah arms situation. And most independents still voted against your blatant support and defense of everything Hezbollah does, your justifications and defense of their weapons and internal incursions, and your political and policy alignment with Iran and Syria. Had the opposition won, Hezbollah would have been entirely at the helm. The Syrian Iranian policy would have been entirely uncontested. And it was clear to the voter that you had already agreed to that.

The loyalists aren't a savory bunch, but they were the only available alternative to the voter. How they move forward on the issue of Hezbollah's weapons and control of the country, however weak it may be, it will always remain a notch lower than the complete capitulation that FPM exhibited. One has to remember that Hezbollah practically rules Lebanon already militarily, and that the government in all its functions is and will be under duress. My preference remains as it always had been the political isolation of Hezbollah, and not necessarily taking reckless military action against Hezbollah as you like to claim. I never expected Saad Hariri to do that and he is not, but what was the alternative? voting for Hezbollah!!? Believe me I will be criticizing the new government's approach to Hezbollah's weapons, but that doesn't mean that one should regret the results of the elections, for a win by the opposition would have been significantly worse on this particular issue, and it would have put Hezbollah and its regional sponsors politicaly at the helm, more than they already are by the power of their gun.

Joseph,

I want to give an honest answer, coming from a FPM supporter.

I agreed with you that we can't build a strong lebanese state while you have non governmental bodies carrying weapons, including the resistance. It's obvious. But I told you that focusing on HA weapons only will lead us nowhere, for many reasons, including the fact that those weapons are an aspect of our problems, in fact a consequence of our problems.

As much as I can understand your fear and half or more of the lebanese fear about those weapons, I can't either divert my attention from our other issues and from the cause of those weapons. It's not a question of confidence or lack of confidence towards HA, but the necessity to adress ourselves to our issues with objectivity.

The thing is that we can discuss about those weapons and we can discuss about the best way in order to deal with this situation, which implies tackling our foreign policy regarding Israel and taking decisions in order not to be in a position too weak towards Israel. But one has to be objective and to read our global situation, not focusing only on this situation or this problem.

What is really disturbing is the fact that you're considering the FPMers as people who no longer want to build the Lebanon we're all dreaming of. You're questionning our stances and failing to understand that we're trying to get Lebanon out from the current mess. We knew that politically isolating HA and disarming HA while HA represent the huge majority of our shiaa brothers, while we haven't recovered our rights from Israel, was impossible, despite our will to see the LAF the sole armed body in Lebanon. While our will is to build ASAP a strong lebanese state. We tried to find a solution which is certainly to be improved, to be discussed.

But you Joseph, like many lebanese, considered us as non-lebanese, as a HA subsidiary. You are wrong and the lebanese are wrong. GMA, FPM and FPM supporters haven't fought more than a decade against the syrian occupation, bearing alone - yes ALONE - this burden, just to give up once the syrians out.

What you did, Joseph, was rejecting us, rejecting FPM, rejecting the possibility to move forward, to try a find a solution, by keeping alive the symbols of the civil war and the occupation.

Anyway, you are free to take any stance, to vote against FPM etc. We're in democracy and I still respect the other's choice. Respecting it doesn't imply that I'm happy with that situation though. I'm rather sad because once again, I see our hopes for a better Lebanon vanishing into thin air.

FPM deserved more than any other political party in this darn country a chance to be in power. A chance to prove itself. Yet people decided to deprive FPM from this chance. Everything's based on assumptions and speculations... But what's shocking is that people considered worth giving a tenth chance to those who destroyed our country, to keep destroying it.

I'm not a person who want to destroy Lebanon nor to turn it into an iranian satellite. FPMers and FPM supporters are not, and definitely FPM is not.

I just hope you and the other lebanese will understand the mistake...at least that. You see, right now, I'm disgusted, deeply disgusted. Not necessarily by the people who did not vote for FPM, but because I know that we won't be able to move forward. It's like FPM was fighting during years for nothing...

[kappa273]

look at this one:

مصادر "المستقبل": الحريري لا يمانع من زيارة دمشق كرئيس حكومة

where are Ashrafieh_LF, Elie Cedar, Joseph-Lubnan, etc.....

we don't need to change the regime in Syria anymore?
the syrians didn't kill Rafiq Hariri?
what about Gebran Tueini? Samir Qassir? Walid Eido? etc.. etc... etc....

kappa

[Revolution1989]

Originally Posted by elias-aj

I just hope you and the other lebanese will understand the mistake...at least that. ...

Call me a cynic... They did not make a mistake. Their objective was to make sure GMA / FPM does not get a chance to govern... That's it, regardless of how Joseph_Lubnan tries to sugar coate it... . From that perspective, he and the ones who voted for M14 were successful.

What is the second order impact of their success? I doubt they care. J_L seems to live in the US and as long he can chant for SG and mock GMA supporters he is likely happy... That the country is going down the drain is the least of their worries...

Unless we're considering the M14 voters to have a really below average IQ, I can't believe any one of them expected a different outcome, per Joseph's post

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by Revolution1989

Call me a cynic... They did not make a mistake. Their objective was to make sure GMA / FPM does not get a chance to govern... That's it, regardless of how Joseph_Lubnan tries to sugar coate it... . From that perspective, he and the ones who voted for M14 were successful.

What is the second order impact of their success? I doubt they care. J_L seems to live in the US and as long he can chant for SG and mock GMA supporters he is likely happy... That the country is going down the drain is the least of their worries...

Unless we're considering the M14 voters to have a really below average IQ, I can't believe any one of them expected a different outcome, per Joseph's post

You can try to find out a lot of reasons why they didn't vote for FPM. Or may be, it's more accurate to say they voted against FPM and not in favor of any other political party.

By experience, when I had the chance to discuss with those who were "against" FPM and GMA, I always managed to corner them because we have a political vision, a positive stance, and the political parties they support don't. But they're stubborn.

Take as an example the HA weapons endless discussions we held in the forum. We tried to have an objective discussion, to avoid the "akel hawa" thing. And never were we able to hold an objective discussion. Another example, when we spoke about the rationalization of our political institutions, like the separation between the audit and control bodies from the executive. Instead of discussing it in an objective manner, we were accused to trying to reduce the power of the prime minister, hence to weaken the sunnis...

How to explain it ? FPM is not a "traditional" party. GMA is not from the "establishment". We are "dreamers" who want to change Lebanon, hence we're not "serious" and subsequently, we can't be taken seriously. Etc. You can find out many factors, many reasons.

I said I was hoping they will understand their mistake. Hoping. Because that's the last thing we're left with, hope. But to what extent ? People still haven't understood one of our biggest pre-civil war mistake which was to reject General Chehab and to reject the small changes he started back then.

It seems you can slap them as much as you like, they won't wake up. The political parties they voted for can spit at them on a daily basis, they will answer it's raining and anyway, we have an umbrella. Better raining than wilayat fakih. Better what we know than change that we're afraid of...

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by elias-aj

You can try to find out a lot of reasons why they didn't vote for FPM. Or may be, it's more accurate to say they voted against FPM and not in favor of any other political party.

By experience, when I had the chance to discuss with those who were "against" FPM and GMA, I always managed to corner them because we have a political vision, a positive stance, and the political parties they support don't. But they're stubborn.

Take as an example the HA weapons endless discussions we held in the forum. We tried to have an objective discussion, to avoid the "akel hawa" thing. And never were we able to hold an objective discussion. Another example, when we spoke about the rationalization of our political institutions, like the separation between the audit and control bodies from the executive. Instead of discussing it in an objective manner, we were accused to trying to reduce the power of the prime minister, hence to weaken the sunnis...

How to explain it ? FPM is not a "traditional" party. GMA is not from the "establishment". We are "dreamers" who want to change Lebanon, hence we're not "serious" and subsequently, we can't be taken seriously. Etc. You can find out many factors, many reasons.

I said I was hoping they will understand their mistake. Hoping. Because that's the last thing we're left with, hope. But to what extent ? People still haven't understood one of our biggest pre-civil war mistake which was to reject General Chehab and to reject the small changes he started back then.

It seems you can slap them as much as you like, they won't wake up. The political parties they voted for can spit at them on a daily basis, they will answer it's raining and anyway, we have an umbrella. Better raining than wilayat fakih. Better what we know than change that we're afraid of...

ELias, it seems to me that there are two FPMs: the one defined by the actions, statements or lackthereof of its leaders and spokespersons, and the one that is a figment of your own imagination. The people are primarily influenced by the first, and base their opinions on that, as they should.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by kappa273

look at this one:

مصادر "المستقبل": الحريري لا يمانع من زيارة دمشق كرئيس حكومة

where are Ashrafieh_LF, Elie Cedar, Joseph-Lubnan, etc.....

we don't need to change the regime in Syria anymore?
the syrians didn't kill Rafiq Hariri?
what about Gebran Tueini? Samir Qassir? Walid Eido? etc.. etc... etc....

kappa

I am here.

Note "as a head of the government". The primary official representative of the government of the republic of Lebanon (after the president). Remember GMA's first assertion regarding visiting Syria, before FPM jumped completely on the Syrian/Iranian alignment band wagon?

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

ELias, it seems to me that there are two FPMs: the one defined by the actions, statements or lackthereof of its leaders and spokespersons, and the one that is a figment of your own imagination.

May be, but we'll never know. Once again, you can't base your judgment on speculations. In a democracy, the notion of accountability must prevail.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by elias-aj

May be, but we'll never know. Once again, you can't base your judgment on speculations. In a democracy, the notion of accountability must prevail.

Exactly Elias. Think about it. The people held FPM accountable for its choices, politics, alignment, alliances, statements, and so on... And they voted against FPM in many cases. FPM stood on the wrong side of some very important issues to its base. What do you mean "we'll never know"? People noted well the FPM performance since 2005, they know.

[kmarthe]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

ELias, it seems to me that there are two FPMs: the one defined by the actions, statements or lackthereof of its leaders and spokespersons, and the one that is a figment of your own imagination. The people are primarily influenced by the first, and base their opinions on that, as they should.

Unfortunately, you were not able to give any valuable answer to all what Elias wrote before, your excuse now is that FPM is two FPMs Don't worry about FPM, it is one and will remain one for many many years to come, cos after all there are few good men who are working day and night behind the scenes.

Could you dare to tell who is bringing Syria back to Lebanon now ? is it GMA or your leader Saad who will not be able to form a government before getting the blessing of Bashar ? Is this the Wajhou Loubnan al Arabi that you and your Batrak want to preserve ? How can you speak about sovereignty and independence if your elected majority is waiting for Khoja and his King to tell you what to do after consulting Bashar ?

Ya 3aybshoum 3a kel wahad fikoun. If you guys have dignity you should be all shutting up for good now. We did not liberate our country from Syria to end up being puppet in the hands of KSA. Shame !!

P.S. If you like to respond never mention FPM in your answers cos FPM is not involved in this maskhara.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by kmarthe

Unfortunately, you were not able to give any valuable answer to all what Elias wrote before, your excuse now is that FPM is two FPMs Don't worry about FPM, it is one and will remain one for many many years to come, cos after all there are few good men who are working day and night behind the scenes.

Could you dare to tell who is bringing Syria back to Lebanon now ? is it GMA or your leader Saad who will not be able to form a government before getting the blessing of Bashar ? Is this the Wajhou Loubnan al Arabi that you and your Batrak want to preserve ? How can you speak about sovereignty and independence if your elected majority is waiting for Khoja and his King to tell you what to do after consulting Bashar ?

Ya 3aybshoum 3a kel wahad fikoun. If you guys have dignity you should be all shutting up for good now. We did not liberate our country from Syria to end up being puppet in the hands of KSA. Shame !!

P.S. If you like to respond never mention FPM in your answers cos FPM is not involved in this maskhara.

Had the allies of Syria/Iran won the elections, what would have happened? Where would Syria be? The opposition, all the opposition is in the lap of Syria and Iran. You bolstered Syria's and Iran's influence in the country long before this election.