The new Left

[thh00]

Allowed by moderator.

Yad issued a bayan ta'sisi as a da3wa for the forst general assemblu

http://www.beirutletter.com/press/press1197.html

[Comrade Bassam]

thh00 and xrenegade,

Congratulations for the steps you have made in order to achieve your goal to be a well defined party.

I read in the newspapers that you have a first general assembly on october 17th.

Wish you good luck and I hope we will have good relations at leasts concerning the points on which we agree...

What I hope, as well as FPM, is that we can have a straight political debate, just like the ones we always wanted to do in previous days but unfortunately everybody was running away, some were even afraid to hear our names as if we came from Mars to conquer earth !

Now as a well defined political party, I guess it will be more easier to have serious talks, at least on the short run, to agree on the least required foundations of a country called "Lebanon", that has the right to exist and live in peace and progress, just like every nation in the world !


LONG LIVE FREE LEBANON
COMRADE BASSAM

[BybLos]

Originally Posted by Sayyan Benghazi

i beleive it would be great if we can have a civilized debate about the commons and differences between the FPM and the Left, but first we need deap info on the new left so we can have a constructive debate

By definition, left means anything that is not restricted to a border or a race or a religion. FPM meet the last 2 but not the first one.

[thh00]

By definition, left means anything that is not restricted to a border or a race or a religion. FPM meet the last 2 but not the first one.

We can agree with FPM on many issues like freedom and secularism without having to agree on everything.

[Comrade Bassam]

Byblos:

Who said that we love borders ?

Existence of Borders is just a temporary strategy until the ones who are behind understand that there are people on the other side willing to live and progress in peace; Until the ones who are behind realise that cancelling the border doesn't mean domination (whether military, political, economical, religious...etc).

You cannot cancel borders unless you have the agreement of all sides of it :!: :!: :!:

The one who choses to cancel the border while the other side is not ready for it, would be committing suicide :!: :!: :!:

Our quest to cancel borders cannot ignore what's behind them. So we'd rather keep them until the other side is 100% convinced that they should be cancelled.

Borders cannot be deleted by a single decision "bayna laylaten wa dou7aha". It's a complete process that can take no less than 50 years of planning and executing, using scientifc approaches.


************************************************** ******************
You Might have missed that FPM was born on the basis of breaking all the physical and psychological borders between the Lebanese themselves and between the Lebanese and the world :!:
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LONG LIVE FREE LEBANON
COMRADE BASSAM

[BybLos]

Originally Posted by Comrade Bassam

Byblos:

Who said that we love borders ?

Existence of Borders is just a temporary strategy until the ones who are behind understand that there are people on the other side willing to live and progress in peace; Until the ones who are behind realise that cancelling the border doesn't mean domination (whether military, political, economical, religious...etc).

You cannot cancel borders unless you have the agreement of all sides of it :!: :!: :!:

The one who choses to cancel the border while the other side is not ready for it, would be committing suicide :!: :!: :!:

Our quest to cancel borders cannot ignore what's behind them. So we'd rather keep them until the other side is 100% convinced that they should be cancelled.

Borders cannot be deleted by a single decision "bayna laylaten wa dou7aha". It's a complete process that can take no less than 50 years of planning and executing, using scientifc approaches.


************************************************** ******************
You Might have missed that FPM was born on the basis of breaking all the physical and psychological borders between the Lebanese themselves and between the Lebanese and the world :!:
************************************************** ******************


LONG LIVE FREE LEBANON
COMRADE BASSAM

Im not askin u bro 2 cancel the borders exrteme left dun do also
but as a l leftist the prolitaria r the major goal 4 ur strugle and anything alse without the prolitaria is not major includin the borders
u in FPM my freind lebanon , and its freedom . sovrinerty , independence is the the major 4 ur self and not the prolitaria
besides u r a movement still now , u can include leftists and rightists

[liberte_toujours]

Byblos,

The proletaria doesn't exist anymore. It's nothing but an illusion today. And u should know, that the debate of the classes has been nothing but a complete failure in the history of mankind. Learn history, and learn that the only way to erase the classes, is for everyone to work as hard as everyone else, to get to a better life, to get educated more and to get the same salaries as others. Nowadays, education is practically free in the LU, the level of studying is very high and one can make a difference in his life when he studies and gets a good job. So why stay in the proletaria when u can get better in life?

[Comrade Bassam]

Byblos:

Please, can I bother you to give me some clarification about your opinion. I guess I still didn't get well your point.
Thanks.


LONG LIVE FREE LEBANON
COMRADE BASSAM

[thh00]

Liberte,
Byblos is not a leftist and he has no rights to talk in the name of the left.
As for proletariat, I agree that the definitions of Karl Marx of classes are a little bit obsolete; however, the general understanding of a class in its position in the mode of production is still valid. Proletariat are those who sell their labor and work for others, Bourgeois are those who own the means of production.
In addition, class mobility, i.e. the ability to move between classes, does not mean that there are no classes anymore.
The class struggle has also changed since the days of Marx and the polarization between classes has been reduced, contrary to Marx's expectations. This was due to the struggles of the workers class that was able to gain concessions from the ruling classes.
Democratic left believes that what needs to be done is to constantly reform and win small concessions to the profits of the poors and not to rely on a revolution.

[liberte_toujours]

thh00,

Ur right about class mobility.
Let me tell u what a society looks like :

Upper Upper
Lower Upper

Upper Middle
Lower Middle

Upper lower
Lower lower

Nowadays, this scheme is present in practically all the societies of the world. Saying that, the struggle doesn't apprear as a burden in life, since a upper middle family can go down to upper lower, as well as a lower lower family can get to lower middle if it works right.

Marx' main problem in his theory is that he never took in consideration the middle class, which gained a lot of space with time, when the proletariat got to study and got better jobs, with the mechanisation of the work (I'm translating in french so I don't know if mechanisation is the right word to use)...

In my opinion, the new left has an illusionnal dilemma. Coz everyone wants to win small concessions to their behalf, may them be from the right or from the left, may them be poor or a bit better. Nevertheless, I believe that the new left, as well as the dependantists (neo-neo marxism, like for i.e. Samir Amine) has the task of awakening the poor population to their rights.