The new Left

[thh00]

Liberte_toujours,
Some arab countries define Islam to be te religion of the state, some European countries define Christianity as the religion of the state. Those countries still have other religious minorities that "by law" have the same rights as others. That does not make them racist, but Israel, defines itself as the country for the jews only. And that is the problem. The flag, the national anthem, the army, etc... are all related to jewish and palestinian who have the israeli passport do not relate to those symbols or values. In addition, there are many laws that discriminate against non-jews, the most important ones are: The right of return and the right of land ownership.
The right of return allows for any jew in the world to come to Israel and take the Israeli nationality, while non-jews do not have such rights, as a matter of fact any non-jew Israeli that gets another nationality loses his Israeli nationality automatically.
The right for land ownership is restricted to jews and non-jews israeli cannot buy new land, they are confined to the lands that they owned b4 1948 and that they were not confiscated.
I guess those points are enough to show that Israel is a racist country. If other arab countries have similar laws that does not mean that if someone is wrong then others have the right to be wrong. I will oppose racism wherever it is, whether in an Arab country or anywhere.
I will answer Sayyan in the next post

[thh00]

Sayyan
First the easy answer:
When I said that the Syrian occupation answer is not a mere yes or no, it was due to the fact that I was thinking of something else. The Syrian army in Lebanon is an occupation army, but it is only one side of the problems of the Lebanese-Syrian relationship that extends to many other aspects like: political hegemony, intelligence presence, unfair economical agreements, etc...
Second, as I mentioned in a previous post, I oppose the regimes in Saudi Arabia and of Iran as well. I also oppose non-Islamist regimes that are dictatorships. If you remember the slogan of our anti-war movement. It was "No to war, no to dictatorships." I also would liek to remind you of the demonstration in 2000 in front of the Egyptian embassy to denounce the arab regimes, where, if I am not mistaken, the FPM participated. We also oppose the Syrian regime in its internal politics and we were among the first to distribute a bayan that in addition to the demands of a change in the Lebanese-Syrian relationships, the bayan was also asking for the release of political prisoners in Syria and for democracy for the Syrian people. FPM also signed on that bayan.
Third, now that you defined what you meant by the Lebanese cause, then I can tell you that both you and us have similar stances when it comes the liberation of Lebanon from any foregin hegemony, for the national reconciliation and for an agreement between Lebanse on what is Lebanon.
I don't know if you know, but the relationship between us and the FPM is old and we have had many common stances, demonstrations, bayanat, etc... And still, everytime we want to do any ta7arrok, FPM are the first to be invited to discuss it. This is to show you that the Lebanese cause, as you call it, is our priority as much as it is yours.

[Sayyan Benghazi]

I don't know if you know, but the relationship between us and the FPM is old and we have had many common stances, demonstrations, bayanat, etc... And still, everytime we want to do any ta7arrok, FPM are the first to be invited to discuss it. This is to show you that the Lebanese cause, as you call it, is our priority as much as it is yours.

why are you taking my questions in an offensive way?
I know exactly how the relationship with the leftist movements are especially among the students since I’m a member of the FPM student committee. I was asking for your position and not the position of the leftists even though they have disappointed us in certain activities like the latest on concerning the Lebanese detainees in Syrian prisons, I hope after the unification of the leftists we get a better view and they will be more organized than in the past.

take it easy we are here to know more about each other and how we think and not to discriminate each other.

[Free Lebanon]

NO they didn't, most and i mean shi 80% of palestinians refused to take money for their land coz that would be called selling their land and thus acknowledging the existence of israel out of land israel bought, something that is out of question fro palestinians...most palestinian refugees still have the keys to their homes in palestine hoping they would return someday and pursue their lives normally...

[Free Lebanon]

how come no one here accpets the existence of israel??
shooo what do u suggest we do with israeli ppl??? throw them out bil ba7er??? walla holocaust II??? Mistakes that happened in the past happened and u can't change anything...today 3andkun a whole new community, society, families businesses of jewish people on the land of palestine...o.k so it's palestinian land initially bass how will you resolve this issue now after more than 50 years of building israel? u can't!! israel we2i3, u can't deny that

israel is not a racist country as someone says being EXCLUSIVELY for jews..it's not!

post zionism exists among the jews of israel: those are the ones who are fighting for the palestinian case rather than against it..(those are increasing by day) and soon we will have a whole group of mou3arada in israel supporting palestinians

i do believe that the u.s are doing as they wish in this world, ya3ne where they think it's for their good they interfere and vice versa and then they denounce interference, but arabs can't stop that (not even all europenas united were able to)
sept 11 happened and that was probably the best things anti american arabs could've wished for...then what??? Bush heads on to the middle east and pulls up another war in arab land against "terrorism"..did we need that? wasn't one war enough?

right now, bil wad3 el 7ele, i believe that as a lebanese citizen, the lebanese case is higher than all cases...we should fight for our full soverreignity then as a totally independent state we will do as much as possible to help palestinians as long as it does not impose any threats to us...we've had enough of helping arabs out and standing ma3 el mawe2if el arbiyye...what did they do for us when we needed them most????? think abt that

[Incognito]

Sayyan,

I do equate Saudi Arabia to Israel, probably even worse, in terms of it being an "exclusive" country. Israel is a Jewish state, there is no doubt that they don't refer to them as such, but they do enable freedom and sub-cultures in their society. Not all, in fact the majority are not, Jewish zealots practicing their religion 24/7.

Saudi Arabia is also a state for Muslims, but as opposed to Israel, it enforces extreme religious law and life upon its citizens. You will find Christian places of worship in Israel, in Saudi Arabia you will be lucky to find even a Shiite place of worship (if it isn't harassed). All Saudi citizens have to be Muslim (Sunni preferably, I'm not sure if Sunni is a prerequisite).

Saudi Arabia is a horrible country and I am not surprised that the majority of Islamic radicals originate from there. The problem with Saudi Arabia is that not only are they radical, but they have a lot of money. It only takes one to go cookoo to cause chaos, Osama Bin Laden a perfect example. When you are forced to breathe extreme Islam and its laws from day 1 of your existence (which includes anti-Christian, anti-West, anti-Hindu, anti-Shiite, anti-Jewish propaganda), then would you not expect these individuals to act upon their radical upbringing?

The way Israel has structured itself is brilliant and a true model for the Arab world. True, the US is largely responsible for Israel's existence, but not wholly. Secularism is destroying the power of religious fanaticism in Israel. The only thing keeping the ultra-Orthodox in power is the conflict against the Arabs. Their radical ideals are suitable to a population driven by fear and disillusionment. However, Israel's ultra-Orthodox power is also its weakness. Yet it is not a weakness we have realised, and it is not something I will delve into because there is no point talking/thinking about it whilst the status quo remains in our state.

If secularism is introduced to Lebanese society, not only will it destroy the sectarian religious authorities, but may also have a domino effect on neighbouring societies. This is exactly what we want and what we NEED.

The US and their main backer, the Christian-right, realise this. That's why they're in Iraq. If there is a Western-style liberal democracy in Iraq, it will destroy Islamic authority. And seeing how Iraq is - when it is up and running - the most powerful Arab country, and perhaps the most resourceful, why wouldn't the Christian-right target at a time when Iraq is at its weakest?

If the Christian-right succeed in Iraq, and if secular reform in Lebanon is there to coincide, we will be witnessing the greatest change the Middle East has seen SINCE Islam. When ordinary citizens in the Islamic world begin to think for themselves, and think freely, then sectarian zealots will be no more.

[Sayyan Benghazi]

at last we have agreed on 99% on this subject

[thh00]

Sayyan,
if my tone was one of anger, then I apologize to you and to all who read my post. My state of mind was related to some other personal stuff and not to something you wrote. As for when the left disapointed you, I cannot answer because I left Lebanon quite a while ago. But I can ask.
Maybe there were some divergence on what the activity was or its timing or its slogans, I don't know. Also, we are in the midst of preparing to launch the new party and maybe we are overloaded with work.

[BybLos]

[quote="liberte_toujours"]

I thought they bought most of the land from the palestinians!

Sorry , very wrong thoughts
havnt heard about belfur promise ? Sayks biko ?
mmmmm
Tayeb Leave this , havnt heard about " Hagana " , " aragon " ?
im sorry if u havt coz besides those jews crimial terrorist gangs killed hundred thousands of palstenians , they killed thousands of lebanese ppl in 7oula , mais l jabal , bleeda , 3aytaroun and and and and many lebanese villages[/b]

[Sayyan Benghazi]

I’m not defending anybody here, but something needs to be said. Hagana and aragon were gangs you are right but they are people from the holly land, don’t forget that these people were fighting the British army through out the period that the British army was present in Palestine/Israel, while the Palestinian people were doing nothing.