Nahr al-Bared Camp: Two Years under Siege

[moughtarib]

Originally Posted by LFAB

We tried to look at them in a different way..
Do i have to recall the "massacre of damour" ??
Do i have to remind u that the most dangerous militias are the palestinian militias in the camps...
find me one reason or any excuse for the palestenian weapons inside and outside the camps...
We tried to treat them like humans.. But they did NOT even try to treat us accordingly...

Your answer is very racist. You're holding a community of some 350,000+ responsible for a war back in the late 70's and making them all pay for the mistakes of those few who were armed back in the 70's.

What does a human being born in 1991 whis is 18 yrs old now who has no way of any decent life other than join some militia have to do with what happened in the 70's.

I am not pro giving them benefits at the expense of Lebanese; the government is first and fore-most responsible for its own people. It should care for its pockets of poverty in Akkar, Bekaa, Bourj Hammoud and such first. This is a crisis/issue that keeps producing some of the same thieves/murderers and such because of the conditions they're forced in to.

Your political hate and background makes a klu klux clan member out of this statement. The palestinian issue is super complicated and treating the issue with such racist behavior brings no solution neither to the palestinians nor to your fears due to history. Try to be human when analyzing these subjects.
...the saying goes: Allah lay jarrbak!

[LFAB]

Originally Posted by moughtarib

Your answer is very racist. You're holding a community of some 350,000+ responsible for a war back in the late 70's and making them all pay for the mistakes of those few who were armed back in the 70's.

Why?
Aren't the 350,000+ you are talking about, holding and raising the slogans of their leadership since 70's?
They still recall the name of Arafat who treated lebanon and lebanese people the same way that Hafiz El-Assad used to treat us...
You can take 60% from ur 350,000+ who have weapons, and they are ready to use their weapons whenever the lebanese army or any other offical lebanese institution came close to their camps or their weapons...
And here i also recall the Ain El-Helwe clashes last year.. where i remember a Palestenian fighter holding an AK-47 and talking on TV saying: "enno yaba 3askare lebnani beddo yfout la 3inna ya3mol zalami.. mamnou3 yed3as 3askari lebnani 3anna"
And you are still convinced that the militiatic palestenian mentality have been demolished since 1990?????
You are convinced that the palestinians in naher el bared wasn't supporting fatah al-islam against the lebanese army????
And as some1 said in this thread...
They are now agaisnt the lebanese army in the camp, but they was WITH fateh l islam domintation on the camp... And in my personal opinion, i think the so called fateh l islam, which we are not hearing a lot about it lately.. Is a small branch of Saiqa and other palestinian organizations

Originally Posted by moughtarib

What does a human being born in 1991 whis is 18 yrs old now who has no way of any decent life other than join some militia have to do with what happened in the 70's.

As i told you earlier..
They are living, and they are raising their kids on the 1975's mentality, and on the hate for the lebanese offical institution, and the lebanese resistance which resisted them back in 1975.. in Tal el Zaatar and other areas

Originally Posted by moughtarib

Your political hate and background makes a klu klux clan member out of this statement. The palestinian issue is super complicated and treating the issue with such racist behavior brings no solution neither to the palestinians nor to your fears due to history. Try to be human when analyzing these subjects.
...the saying goes: Allah lay jarrbak!

the political hate dont come by itself... w akid allah jarrabneh bel damour, bel 3ayshiyyeh.. allah jarrabneh bel ashrafieh w b zahle..
allah jarrabneh b saida w b tall el zaatar... allah jarrabneh 7atta a3rif enno l falasteeneh ma elo 2amen...

i believe that many palestinians have nothing to do with those terrorists and militias who are fighting in their name while they have nothing to do with the CRISIS..

fighting each other in the first place (fateh and hamas) then attacking their neighbours (lebanon, etc...) in the name of the crisis.. is this how they are going to solve the Palestinian crisis??????

Im sorry my friend.. we cant solve the CRISIS in North Lebanon, we cant solve it in Ain el Helwe.. we can solve it in Sabra and Chatila, we cant solve it in Burj l Brajnehh...

[moughtarib]

Originally Posted by LFAB

Why?
Aren't the 350,000+ you are talking about, holding and raising the slogans of their leadership since 70's?
They still recall the name of Arafat who treated lebanon and lebanese people the same way that Hafiz El-Assad used to treat us...
You can take 60% from ur 350,000+ who have weapons, and they are ready to use their weapons whenever the lebanese army or any other offical lebanese institution came close to their camps or their weapons...
And here i also recall the Ain El-Helwe clashes last year.. where i remember a Palestenian fighter holding an AK-47 and talking on TV saying: "enno yaba 3askare lebnani beddo yfout la 3inna ya3mol zalami.. mamnou3 yed3as 3askari lebnani 3anna"
And you are still convinced that the militiatic palestenian mentality have been demolished since 1990?????
You are convinced that the palestinians in naher el bared wasn't supporting fatah al-islam against the lebanese army????
And as some1 said in this thread...
They are now agaisnt the lebanese army in the camp, but they was WITH fateh l islam domintation on the camp... And in my personal opinion, i think the so called fateh l islam, which we are not hearing a lot about it lately.. Is a small branch of Saiqa and other palestinian organizations




As i told you earlier..
They are living, and they are raising their kids on the 1975's mentality, and on the hate for the lebanese offical institution, and the lebanese resistance which resisted them back in 1975.. in Tal el Zaatar and other areas



the political hate dont come by itself... w akid allah jarrabneh bel damour, bel 3ayshiyyeh.. allah jarrabneh bel ashrafieh w b zahle..
allah jarrabneh b saida w b tall el zaatar... allah jarrabneh 7atta a3rif enno l falasteeneh ma elo 2amen...

i believe that many palestinians have nothing to do with those terrorists and militias who are fighting in their name while they have nothing to do with the CRISIS..

fighting each other in the first place (fateh and hamas) then attacking their neighbours (lebanon, etc...) in the name of the crisis.. is this how they are going to solve the Palestinian crisis??????

Im sorry my friend.. we cant solve the CRISIS in North Lebanon, we cant solve it in Ain el Helwe.. we can solve it in Sabra and Chatila, we cant solve it in Burj l Brajnehh...

thanks for making your answer civilized; I wasn't expecting it - see we all have predjudices :-)

Lets start from the end, I expected you to list the places where Christians lost their homes when I wrote 'allah la yjarbak'....but I thought you'd get my point. Let me make it simple: 1948-2009 and counting, no visible solution vs. A civil war situation that is over since 91' + fixed for many (who returned to their homes) or recompensated or at least have the 'right' to be recompensated pending Jumblatt's whims. ---> You're comparing a toe ache to a cut off limb.
I get your point politically and I am supportive of the civilians especially who had to go through hardship; but its magnitude at the community level is no where close to what the Palestinian refugees go through. At the individual level, as they say, one hair of your brother aches you for years.

To your other points, to sum it up, you gave me a paradox here: you say many palestinians have nothing to do with those terrorists and militias but then you want to punish all of the refugees with subhuman conditions and rights just because they are from the nationality of those terrorists and refugees?
How do you feel when you're screened a good 4 times at JFK just because you're lebanese? Do you feel injustice? You personally never commited a crime against the US, but just because you're lebanese you're treated unjustly.

Overall, the animosity amongst Palestinians and Lebanese rightwingers is not something I can personally solve with a few posts to a stranger. I can tell you even more horrifying stories of 13-14 yrs old Palestnian Kids whom I taught English language at Sabra camp and they've got an engrained fear from 'elmasihiyeh' who want to kill them (as their parents had experienced the massacre of sabra and chatila)...What do i do in that situation? I tell the kid, well this nice volunteer English tutor is actually a 'masiheh bikhawwif' :-)

The solution is clear, though not simple, we need to work at removing this animosity through real 'reconciliation' between the communities. The killers on both sides should apologize to the victims and their families individually- they should talk about their fears and learn to overcome them. Palestinian kids should learn to play football with 'massihiyeh' and realize they don't have wolf teeth and you my LFer friend might enjoy a tabouleh made by the hands of a Palestinian refugee mother of 3 dead sons who were innocently killed while buying bread from outside the camp by the 'masihiye'.
...This South Africa Reconciliation...
And from there, we can probably revisit the subject of their human rights and probably then i can expect you to agree to lower the racist tone and treat them as humans to the extent that your own population doesn't get severely affected.

[LFAB]

Originally Posted by moughtarib

To your other points, to sum it up, you gave me a paradox here: you say many palestinians have nothing to do with those terrorists and militias but then you want to punish all of the refugees with subhuman conditions and rights just because they are from the nationality of those terrorists and refugees?
How do you feel when you're screened a good 4 times at JFK just because you're lebanese? Do you feel injustice? You personally never commited a crime against the US, but just because you're lebanese you're treated unjustly.

Your right here, but you know very well that when we talk about palestinians, we dont mean all of the palestinian population , and i dont mean everyone, i guess i was clear when i talked about Saiqa and Hamas and Fateh l Islam and Fateh abu 3ammar and so on, i mean those people and all of the people who are holding their slogans..
After all.. not all of ur fingers are the same..
The same thing is applicable when we talk about syria and the syrians.. we said it many times, not all everyone among the 18 million syrian population is responsible for the dictatorism of the syrian regime...
and i guess i was clear when i said 60% of ur 350,000+ right??

Originally Posted by moughtarib

Overall, the animosity amongst Palestinians and Lebanese rightwingers is not something I can personally solve with a few posts to a stranger. I can tell you even more horrifying stories of 13-14 yrs old Palestnian Kids whom I taught English language at Sabra camp and they've got an engrained fear from 'elmasihiyeh' who want to kill them (as their parents had experienced the massacre of sabra and chatila)...What do i do in that situation? I tell the kid, well this nice volunteer English tutor is actually a 'masiheh bikhawwif' :-)

Sabra and Chatila, is something much bigger than this discussion.
And we all know who did it.
In brief, Hobeika (the double agent) , Israel with the help of syrian officers, he is where u have to understand why i call Elie Hobeika as a "double agent"
I dont wont to go more far in this topic...

Originally Posted by moughtarib

The solution is clear, though not simple, we need to work at removing this animosity through real 'reconciliation' between the communities. The killers on both sides should apologize to the victims and their families individually- they should talk about their fears and learn to overcome them. Palestinian kids should learn to play football with 'massihiyeh' and realize they don't have wolf teeth and you my LFer friend might enjoy a tabouleh made by the hands of a Palestinian refugee mother of 3 dead sons who were innocently killed while buying bread from outside the camp by the 'masihiye'.

On the emotional side, you are totally right..
And on a side note here.. I have no problem with palestinians since my grandmother is from the palestinians of the 48 and she is christian also, and our family comes from palestinian origins back to 200 or more years. Thats not the point.
And again, i was more than clear while talking about palestinian terrorist organisations and militias...
The difference between them and us, is that we use democracy, we dont BRAINWASH..
Other than that.. i always enjoy the tabbouleh made by palestinian hands :)
The conflict of regimes, the conflict of slogans and the conflict regimes is totally different from the confilict of "civilisations" which is out of my case here!

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by SamerTayyar

well said LFAB

the "Arab" countries sold the Palestenian cause and acknowledged Israel as a Jewish state, and seem to be concerned more with the shiites living in their countries than the invasion of the Aqsa mosque by Jewish radicals, Lebanon cant pay more than it already did for the Palestenian cause, we have enough internal problems, many of them due to the Palestenian presence on our soil.

And what do you suggest we do? Throw them in the sea?

[SamerTayyar]

Originally Posted by Saladin

And what do you suggest we do? Throw them in the sea?

no Im not a Ja3ja3ist.

Diplomatic pressure on the Arab and Western countries to host them, its very absurd that the US finances the ongoing slaughter of Palestenians in Palestine while it practices "humanity" in dealing with those living in Lebanon. Sweden took in thousands a few days ago from the Syrian-Iraqi border, why is the Lebanese government not lobbying for the same goal? What is the government exactly waiting for?

The first step should be disarmament of all the Palestenian factions, we need a president and a PM with balls to act on it.

[NEVER_BACK_DOWN]

Originally Posted by Saladin

And what do you suggest we do? Throw them in the sea?

No , throw the lebanese in the sea

[Saladin]

Originally Posted by SamerTayyar

no Im not a Ja3ja3ist.

Diplomatic pressure on the Arab and Western countries to host them, its very absurd that the US finances the ongoing slaughter of Palestenians in Palestine while it practices "humanity" in dealing with those living in Lebanon. Sweden took in thousands a few days ago from the Syrian-Iraqi border, why is the Lebanese government not lobbying for the same goal? What is the government exactly waiting for?

The first step should be disarmament of all the Palestenian factions, we need a president and a PM with balls to act on it.

A reasonable solution would be having nearby countries(Syria, KSA) hosting them. They have plenty of lands and resources. Unfortunately this would never happen, hada bejeeb el mashakel 3a daro?

[hannaalsayssa]

Originally Posted by Saladin

A reasonable solution would be having nearby countries(Syria, KSA) hosting them. They have plenty of lands and resources. Unfortunately this would never happen, hada bejeeb el mashakel 3a daro?

who brought them
who nurtured them
who sided with them against other lebanese
who defended them
wh stayed 7 month without forming a govt because of them
who called them dear brothers and more
who gave them the idea that jerusalem passes by jounieh
who is using them now in camps

i know who
GENERAL WA FPM NO?

[moughtarib]

Originally Posted by LFAB

Your right here, but you know very well that when we talk about palestinians, we dont mean all of the palestinian population , and i dont mean everyone, i guess i was clear when i talked about Saiqa and Hamas and Fateh l Islam and Fateh abu 3ammar and so on, i mean those people and all of the people who are holding their slogans..
After all.. not all of ur fingers are the same..
The same thing is applicable when we talk about syria and the syrians.. we said it many times, not all everyone among the 18 million syrian population is responsible for the dictatorism of the syrian regime...
and i guess i was clear when i said 60% of ur 350,000+ right??




Sabra and Chatila, is something much bigger than this discussion.
And we all know who did it.
In brief, Hobeika (the double agent) , Israel with the help of syrian officers, he is where u have to understand why i call Elie Hobeika as a "double agent"
I dont wont to go more far in this topic...



On the emotional side, you are totally right..
And on a side note here.. I have no problem with palestinians since my grandmother is from the palestinians of the 48 and she is christian also, and our family comes from palestinian origins back to 200 or more years. Thats not the point.
And again, i was more than clear while talking about palestinian terrorist organisations and militias...
The difference between them and us, is that we use democracy, we dont BRAINWASH..
Other than that.. i always enjoy the tabbouleh made by palestinian hands :)
The conflict of regimes, the conflict of slogans and the conflict regimes is totally different from the confilict of "civilisations" which is out of my case here!

Its worth doing the effort and making that distinction between political parties/militias/armed groups AND populations. Make that distinction in your posts/discussions/speeches...it goes a long way really.

Second, even now that you've explained that distinction to me; you still haven't put down a reasoning for the subhuman conditions other than our racist attitude and fears.

To the Sabra & Chatila massacre, there are two folds to it:
1. Human: Who ever actually did it the palestinian population is scared **** of 'massihiyeh' because of it; and the situation was simple. The Palestinian fighters left to Tripoli after the 1982 defeat and the civilian population was massacred because there was no one to protect them. They were massacred by the 'massihiye'. That is the problem (fear) we need to deal with to be able to correctly fix the fear/armed groups issues in the camps.
2. Legal: This is the first time I hear such an explanation. There are loads of documents and paperwork that prove who did what in Sabra & Chatila. You don't need to create a story to make yourself look innocent. You probably were too young to go ahead and shoot a few palestinians back in 82'. Watch 'Waltz with Bachir' and tell me what you think.