March 8th 2005: What was your position then? What is your position now?

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dodzi

He touched them both!

no no no my friend, just look at the innocent face of Saad, he's the one who touched him.

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

no no no my friend, just look at the innocent face of Saad, he's the one who touched him.

Laaaa ma the whole thing was a competition. Saad already had Sitrida, now Ammouneh had the Nayla... That's whole idea behind the victory sign...

[Dark Angel]

Originally Posted by hhhh23

On March 8th, 2005, a number of political parties (HA, Amal, SSNP, Karame, Frangieh, Arslan, Wahhab, Lahoud, etc) went on the streets to thank Syria for their 15 years occupation in Lebanon. These parties may have had different reasons for the thank you, but they united in it anyhow.

On that day, many parties, notably the FPM (official Aoun position towards the demonstration), issued official statements that condemn this demonstration and that attack the Syrians for pushing their supporters to go on the street. Many thought that what happened on March 14, was a result of the March 8 demonstration. Moreover, the Karam government that was in place back then, can be thought of as a representative March 8 government.

Since then, political alliances went into a turnmoil. During this period, everyone (FM, PSP, FPM, etc) at one point or the other allied with the March 8 factions. Elections 2005 saw FM and co ally with March 8th, while since 2006 we have seen FPM ally with March 8th. This, on its own, shows that the March 8th factions have some representation on the street, otherwise, people wouldnt be going after them in the elections.

In this thread, I seek the opinions of the forumers on two things: the March 8th demonstration itself, and the various parties that were involved in March 8 (please do not shorten march 8 by HA, I'd rather the discussions go beyond HA to include all others). The key points to discuss (by "you" I mean the forumers and not the parties, a forumer may be FPMer but has a different opinion than the official FPM opinion):

1- What was your position in 2005 vis a vis the March 8th demonstration?
2- What is your position in 2009, towards the March 8th demonstration?
3- What did you, in 2005, think of the parties that participated on March 8th, 2005 in the demonstration? What do you think of them now, in 2009?
4- What was, in your opinion, the real objective of March 8th, 2005? What do you think of it now, looking back?
5- For non-FPMers, how did you accept the alliance with March 8th factions in the elections of 2005 (mainly HA)? What do you think of it now?
6- For FPMers, on March 8th, 2005 you totally opposed this demonstration, now you ally with many of its factions, what has changed in your view of them (please give your opinion on all March 8th parties except for HA whose alliance with FPM is based on a clear MoU)?
7- For all the parties that opposed Syria from 1990-2005, how did it feel to see the thank you Syria on March 8th, 2005? How about now, in 2009, when you look back, do you think that March 8th, 2005 is more understandable?
8- Is it, in your opinion, acceptable to demonstrate for thanking an occupier? If not, do you think the March 8th factions owe the Lebanese people an apology on that demonstration?
9- Many people state that the March 8th parties are very honest, because they were Syria's allies from 1990-2005 and they REMAINED Syrian allies after 2005, unlike FM, PSP etc. Do you think that these parties still believe in the objectives that they had on March 8th, 2005? How did their opinion evolve?
10- Looking back now to 2005, was asking for the resignation of the March 8th government of Karame back then, a mistake? This question is mainly for FPMers, because at this point, most of the Ministers of that government are now FPM allies (Karame, Frangieh, Wahhab, Arslan, etc), hence, do you think that FPM's position in 2005, asking for the resignation of Karame, was a mistake or not?

I appreciate that this thread revolves only on the opinions about March 8th 2005 (demonstration parties etc). Do not turn this into a HA bashing thread, actually, one can understand how parties can ally with HA, after all, HA represents a big chunk of the lebanese people and has its base, however, what is not understandable is the position towards other March 8th figures (e.g. Wahhab, Arslan, SSNP, Mrad, etc etc).

Also, it would be interesting that forumers state how their opinion evolved from 2005 and why.

Your line of questioning denotes that your understanding of FPM’s motivations is rather poor at best. Your attempt to delineate a contradiction or a shift in FPMs strategic principals indicates that you conceive FPM to be an entity that perceives Lebanese fractions with different perspectives as mortal enemies who should be drowned in the sea or driven to migrate away to wherever you think their allegiance is.

The reality of the matter is that right from its perception FPM has always been trying to find a common ground that could form a solid base that can tolerate different perspective and upon which all Lebanese can coexist within the common frame of a single state. We have no mortal enemies inside Lebanon, we simply have a vision that could absorb everybody.

That said, you obviously have embarked upon the wrong line of questioning. The more informative questions would be how did and why did the March 14 movement fall apart? And the answer is relatively easy. Few days after the march 14 demonstration evidence began to pile up that all while the Syrians were being driven out thanks to the cedar revolution and international pressure, some of the main figures of the march 14 movement did not share our vision of building a state, they wanted the go along with the governing style that marked the era of the Syrian occupation; taking shortcuts through laws and the constitution in order to safeguard their empires at the expense of the state.

These shortcuts included continuing the hegemony over the Christian decision making process that were already well established under the Syrian rule, we were on a collision path from day one. FPM wasn’t even allowed on the Feb14 lists and ran their electoral campaign against us, and I say Feb14, because the minute FPM left that coalition the name lost its meaning and they reverted to being what they are, the harirists.

In the meanwhile, we continued doing what we believe in, forging unity under the banner of the Lebanese flag.

The rest is history…

[centrist]

hizballah: their position didnt change
FPM: there were anti syrian and anti hizballah, and are now pro syrians, pro hizballah.

that was aoun's trick that we all didnt see coming when we voted for him in 2005. he did the magician... after 15 years of laughing at us... abracadabra.. and HOP, he change face in 1 day.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by centrist

hizballah: their position didnt change
FPM: there were anti syrian and anti hizballah, and are now pro syrians, pro hizballah.

that was aoun's trick that we all didnt see coming when we voted for him in 2005. he did the magician... after 15 years of laughing at us... abracadabra.. and HOP, he change face in 1 day.

The next magic trick will be conducted by the VOTERS.

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by Dark Angel

Your line of questioning denotes that your understanding of FPM’s motivations is rather poor at best. Your attempt to delineate a contradiction or a shift in FPMs strategic principals indicates that you conceive FPM to be an entity that perceives Lebanese fractions with different perspectives as mortal enemies who should be drowned in the sea or driven to migrate away to wherever you think their allegiance is.

The reality of the matter is that right from its perception FPM has always been trying to find a common ground that could form a solid base that can tolerate different perspective and upon which all Lebanese can coexist within the common frame of a single state. We have no mortal enemies inside Lebanon, we simply have a vision that could absorb everybody.

That said, you obviously have embarked upon the wrong line of questioning. The more informative questions would be how did and why did the March 14 movement fall apart? And the answer is relatively easy. Few days after the march 14 demonstration evidence began to pile up that all while the Syrians were being driven out thanks to the cedar revolution and international pressure, some of the main figures of the march 14 movement did not share our vision of building a state, they wanted the go along with the governing style that marked the era of the Syrian occupation; taking shortcuts through laws and the constitution in order to safeguard their empires at the expense of the state.

These shortcuts included continuing the hegemony over the Christian decision making process that were already well established under the Syrian rule, we were on a collision path from day one. FPM wasn’t even allowed on the Feb14 lists and ran their electoral campaign against us, and I say Feb14, because the minute FPM left that coalition the name lost its meaning and they reverted to being what they are, the harirists.

In the meanwhile, we continued doing what we believe in, forging unity under the banner of the Lebanese flag.

The rest is history…

Are you a psychiatrist? Instead of your analysis of my personality, my intentions and my dark inside, why dont you reply to the post like everyone else? You want to see a sample on how normal and respectful people reply to this post, check below:

Originally Posted by dodzi

1- What was your position in 2005 vis a vis the March 8th demonstration?
I was against it, didn't understand why some were supporting Syria... March 14 Lebanese are the brothers of March 8 Lebanese. We supported them for removing Israel, they should support us to be independent of Syria!

2- What is your position in 2009, towards the March 8th demonstration?
I think it was not necessary. I think March 14 goals were not incompatible with those of March 8 movement (getting Syria out and thanking it). Aoun has a not very contradictory position, nor do I: remove the Syrians, but build good relations with it, not conspire to create a coup in Syria!

3- What did you, in 2005, think of the parties that participated on March 8th, 2005 in the demonstration? What do you think of them now, in 2009?
I thought March 8 parties were inconsiderate of the rest of the Lebanese... As I said before, we support them driving Israel out, they should support our needs too! Today I just see it as a behavior of fear. They were afraid that Lebanon was going to be another American experience...

4- What was, in your opinion, the real objective of March 8th, 2005? What do you think of it now, looking back?
I thought it was to let Syria stay... But I was outside the country. Turns out they only wanted to thank Syria, and showed that some in Lebanon supported it...

5- For non-FPMers, how did you accept the alliance with March 8th factions in the elections of 2005 (mainly HA)? What do you think of it now?
I'm an FPMer so... I thought it was hypocritical... It was only, as today, a fight against Aoun, not Syria!

6- For FPMers, on March 8th, 2005 you totally opposed this demonstration, now you ally with many of its factions, what has changed in your view of them (please give your opinion on all March 8th parties except for HA whose alliance with FPM is based on a clear MoU)?
Berri=corrupt... I don't like him. Frangieh I don't really care... The alliance as a whole is not more wrong than an alliance with the Hariri-Geagea-Joumblatt-Gemayel gang... In fact, beside Berri, the rest of the March 8th alliance is cleaner than that of March 14... It is an alliance against corruption, against Hariri gang, against American policies

7- For all the parties that opposed Syria from 1990-2005, how did it feel to see the thank you Syria on March 8th, 2005? How about now, in 2009, when you look back, do you think that March 8th, 2005 is more understandable?
It felt wrong. We didn't oppose resistance against Israel! Lebanese should be in solidarity with each other! Today I think March 14 understood us, the same way we understand them!

8- Is it, in your opinion, acceptable to demonstrate for thanking an occupier? If not, do you think the March 8th factions owe the Lebanese people an apology on that demonstration?
It was a one-time thing. It was important to show that there are different opinions in Lebanon. Also, I think the March 8th demonstration was misinterpreted. It was only a thank you demonstration, not asking them to stay!

9- Many people state that the March 8th parties are very honest, because they were Syria's allies from 1990-2005 and they REMAINED Syrian allies after 2005, unlike FM, PSP etc. Do you think that these parties still believe in the objectives that they had on March 8th, 2005? How did their opinion evolve?
I don't understand the question... What were their objectives on March 8th beside thanking Syria? They didn't ask it to stay...

10- Looking back now to 2005, was asking for the resignation of the March 8th government of Karame back then, a mistake? This question is mainly for FPMers, because at this point, most of the Ministers of that government are now FPM allies (Karame, Frangieh, Wahhab, Arslan, etc), hence, do you think that FPM's position in 2005, asking for the resignation of Karame, was a mistake or not?
No it wasn't. Things had to change. A crisis had occurred, and no crisis can be resolved without a change... A government of national unity had to be installed, and it did... No regrets. Elections were only a couple of months away so...

Learn to respect others (a sample above), stop your psychoanalysis, and then come and discuss.

[Libnene Qu7]

Originally Posted by centrist

hizballah: their position didnt change
FPM: there were anti syrian and anti hizballah, and are now pro syrians, pro hizballah.

that was aoun's trick that we all didnt see coming when we voted for him in 2005. he did the magician... after 15 years of laughing at us... abracadabra.. and HOP, he change face in 1 day.

FPM changed from anti-HA to pro-HA, yes, that's a fact. But where's the shame in two Lebanese parties settling their odds?

I don't undertand what you mean with the allegation that FPM changed from anti-Syrian to pro-Syrian? How is it possible to be anti or pro Syrian after they left in April of '05? If you watch the old video of GMA on March 14, 1989, you'll see that even when the Syrian gun was pointed at him, he declared that Syria is our enemy until its last soldier leaves. Therefore, FPM didn't change its principal at all with regards to Syria.

Of course you probably won't understand the above paragraph, given your understanding of Hariri and Joumblatt's "anti-Syrianism".

[The Jade]

This was one of the 2 major mistakes that Hezbollah did (the other one was the quadripartite alliance).

Now, back then, Hezbollah made a huge mistake by thanking the occupier. Thank him for what ? For helping them ?
Maybe Syria did support Hezbollah financially, politically and logistically, but back then Hezbollah misjudged the situation a lot since they showed that they didn't care about their fellow lebanese who actually were beaten, killed and jailed by this state.


March 14th was a response to march 8th.

Now, I still see it as a huge mistake by Hezbollah and their allies back then, I would never understand their move and would never forgive this mistake unless they repented.

As for Hezbollah's policies, this is another story that we could talk over somewhere else.

Cheers

[Zghertewe]

Originally Posted by centrist

hizballah: their position didnt change
FPM: there were anti syrian and anti hizballah, and are now pro syrians, pro hizballah.

that was aoun's trick that we all didnt see coming when we voted for him in 2005. he did the magician... after 15 years of laughing at us... abracadabra.. and HOP, he change face in 1 day.

The people who used to hate Aoun now HOP hates him more..from anti Aoun to anti anti Aoun.. Please without the drama that you voted FPM in 2005 and FPM tricked you..

[Zghertewe]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

The next magic trick will be conducted by the VOTERS.

You are going to be disappointed..