March 8th 2005: What was your position then? What is your position now?

[hhhh23]

On March 8th, 2005, a number of political parties (HA, Amal, SSNP, Karame, Frangieh, Arslan, Wahhab, Lahoud, etc) went on the streets to thank Syria for their 15 years occupation in Lebanon. These parties may have had different reasons for the thank you, but they united in it anyhow.

On that day, many parties, notably the FPM (official Aoun position towards the demonstration), issued official statements that condemn this demonstration and that attack the Syrians for pushing their supporters to go on the street. Many thought that what happened on March 14, was a result of the March 8 demonstration. Moreover, the Karam government that was in place back then, can be thought of as a representative March 8 government.

Since then, political alliances went into a turnmoil. During this period, everyone (FM, PSP, FPM, etc) at one point or the other allied with the March 8 factions. Elections 2005 saw FM and co ally with March 8th, while since 2006 we have seen FPM ally with March 8th. This, on its own, shows that the March 8th factions have some representation on the street, otherwise, people wouldnt be going after them in the elections.

In this thread, I seek the opinions of the forumers on two things: the March 8th demonstration itself, and the various parties that were involved in March 8 (please do not shorten march 8 by HA, I'd rather the discussions go beyond HA to include all others). The key points to discuss (by "you" I mean the forumers and not the parties, a forumer may be FPMer but has a different opinion than the official FPM opinion):

1- What was your position in 2005 vis a vis the March 8th demonstration?
2- What is your position in 2009, towards the March 8th demonstration?
3- What did you, in 2005, think of the parties that participated on March 8th, 2005 in the demonstration? What do you think of them now, in 2009?
4- What was, in your opinion, the real objective of March 8th, 2005? What do you think of it now, looking back?
5- For non-FPMers, how did you accept the alliance with March 8th factions in the elections of 2005 (mainly HA)? What do you think of it now?
6- For FPMers, on March 8th, 2005 you totally opposed this demonstration, now you ally with many of its factions, what has changed in your view of them (please give your opinion on all March 8th parties except for HA whose alliance with FPM is based on a clear MoU)?
7- For all the parties that opposed Syria from 1990-2005, how did it feel to see the thank you Syria on March 8th, 2005? How about now, in 2009, when you look back, do you think that March 8th, 2005 is more understandable?
8- Is it, in your opinion, acceptable to demonstrate for thanking an occupier? If not, do you think the March 8th factions owe the Lebanese people an apology on that demonstration?
9- Many people state that the March 8th parties are very honest, because they were Syria's allies from 1990-2005 and they REMAINED Syrian allies after 2005, unlike FM, PSP etc. Do you think that these parties still believe in the objectives that they had on March 8th, 2005? How did their opinion evolve?
10- Looking back now to 2005, was asking for the resignation of the March 8th government of Karame back then, a mistake? This question is mainly for FPMers, because at this point, most of the Ministers of that government are now FPM allies (Karame, Frangieh, Wahhab, Arslan, etc), hence, do you think that FPM's position in 2005, asking for the resignation of Karame, was a mistake or not?

I appreciate that this thread revolves only on the opinions about March 8th 2005 (demonstration parties etc). Do not turn this into a HA bashing thread, actually, one can understand how parties can ally with HA, after all, HA represents a big chunk of the lebanese people and has its base, however, what is not understandable is the position towards other March 8th figures (e.g. Wahhab, Arslan, SSNP, Mrad, etc etc).

Also, it would be interesting that forumers state how their opinion evolved from 2005 and why.

[dodzi]

1- What was your position in 2005 vis a vis the March 8th demonstration?
I was against it, didn't understand why some were supporting Syria... March 14 Lebanese are the brothers of March 8 Lebanese. We supported them for removing Israel, they should support us to be independent of Syria!

2- What is your position in 2009, towards the March 8th demonstration?
I think it was not necessary. I think March 14 goals were not incompatible with those of March 8 movement (getting Syria out and thanking it). Aoun has a not very contradictory position, nor do I: remove the Syrians, but build good relations with it, not conspire to create a coup in Syria!

3- What did you, in 2005, think of the parties that participated on March 8th, 2005 in the demonstration? What do you think of them now, in 2009?
I thought March 8 parties were inconsiderate of the rest of the Lebanese... As I said before, we support them driving Israel out, they should support our needs too! Today I just see it as a behavior of fear. They were afraid that Lebanon was going to be another American experience...

4- What was, in your opinion, the real objective of March 8th, 2005? What do you think of it now, looking back?
I thought it was to let Syria stay... But I was outside the country. Turns out they only wanted to thank Syria, and showed that some in Lebanon supported it...

5- For non-FPMers, how did you accept the alliance with March 8th factions in the elections of 2005 (mainly HA)? What do you think of it now?
I'm an FPMer so... I thought it was hypocritical... It was only, as today, a fight against Aoun, not Syria!

6- For FPMers, on March 8th, 2005 you totally opposed this demonstration, now you ally with many of its factions, what has changed in your view of them (please give your opinion on all March 8th parties except for HA whose alliance with FPM is based on a clear MoU)?
Berri=corrupt... I don't like him. Frangieh I don't really care... The alliance as a whole is not more wrong than an alliance with the Hariri-Geagea-Joumblatt-Gemayel gang... In fact, beside Berri, the rest of the March 8th alliance is cleaner than that of March 14... It is an alliance against corruption, against Hariri gang, against American policies

7- For all the parties that opposed Syria from 1990-2005, how did it feel to see the thank you Syria on March 8th, 2005? How about now, in 2009, when you look back, do you think that March 8th, 2005 is more understandable?
It felt wrong. We didn't oppose resistance against Israel! Lebanese should be in solidarity with each other! Today I think March 14 understood us, the same way we understand them!

8- Is it, in your opinion, acceptable to demonstrate for thanking an occupier? If not, do you think the March 8th factions owe the Lebanese people an apology on that demonstration?
It was a one-time thing. It was important to show that there are different opinions in Lebanon. Also, I think the March 8th demonstration was misinterpreted. It was only a thank you demonstration, not asking them to stay!

9- Many people state that the March 8th parties are very honest, because they were Syria's allies from 1990-2005 and they REMAINED Syrian allies after 2005, unlike FM, PSP etc. Do you think that these parties still believe in the objectives that they had on March 8th, 2005? How did their opinion evolve?
I don't understand the question... What were their objectives on March 8th beside thanking Syria? They didn't ask it to stay...

10- Looking back now to 2005, was asking for the resignation of the March 8th government of Karame back then, a mistake? This question is mainly for FPMers, because at this point, most of the Ministers of that government are now FPM allies (Karame, Frangieh, Wahhab, Arslan, etc), hence, do you think that FPM's position in 2005, asking for the resignation of Karame, was a mistake or not?
No it wasn't. Things had to change. A crisis had occurred, and no crisis can be resolved without a change... A government of national unity had to be installed, and it did... No regrets. Elections were only a couple of months away so...

[Dry Ice]

As a reference, here's the thread of 8 March 2005:

The one milion man march

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by dodzi

1- What was your position in 2005 vis a vis the March 8th demonstration?
I was against it, didn't understand why some were supporting Syria... March 14 Lebanese are the brothers of March 8 Lebanese. We supported them for removing Israel, they should support us to be independent of Syria!

2- What is your position in 2009, towards the March 8th demonstration?
I think it was not necessary. I think March 14 goals were not incompatible with those of March 8 movement (getting Syria out and thanking it). Aoun has a not very contradictory position, nor do I: remove the Syrians, but build good relations with it, not conspire to create a coup in Syria!

3- What did you, in 2005, think of the parties that participated on March 8th, 2005 in the demonstration? What do you think of them now, in 2009?
I thought March 8 parties were inconsiderate of the rest of the Lebanese... As I said before, we support them driving Israel out, they should support our needs too! Today I just see it as a behavior of fear. They were afraid that Lebanon was going to be another American experience...

4- What was, in your opinion, the real objective of March 8th, 2005? What do you think of it now, looking back?
I thought it was to let Syria stay... But I was outside the country. Turns out they only wanted to thank Syria, and showed that some in Lebanon supported it...

5- For non-FPMers, how did you accept the alliance with March 8th factions in the elections of 2005 (mainly HA)? What do you think of it now?
I'm an FPMer so... I thought it was hypocritical... It was only, as today, a fight against Aoun, not Syria!

6- For FPMers, on March 8th, 2005 you totally opposed this demonstration, now you ally with many of its factions, what has changed in your view of them (please give your opinion on all March 8th parties except for HA whose alliance with FPM is based on a clear MoU)?
Berri=corrupt... I don't like him. Frangieh I don't really care... The alliance as a whole is not more wrong than an alliance with the Hariri-Geagea-Joumblatt-Gemayel gang... In fact, beside Berri, the rest of the March 8th alliance is cleaner than that of March 14... It is an alliance against corruption, against Hariri gang, against American policies

7- For all the parties that opposed Syria from 1990-2005, how did it feel to see the thank you Syria on March 8th, 2005? How about now, in 2009, when you look back, do you think that March 8th, 2005 is more understandable?
It felt wrong. We didn't oppose resistance against Israel! Lebanese should be in solidarity with each other! Today I think March 14 understood us, the same way we understand them!

8- Is it, in your opinion, acceptable to demonstrate for thanking an occupier? If not, do you think the March 8th factions owe the Lebanese people an apology on that demonstration?
It was a one-time thing. It was important to show that there are different opinions in Lebanon. Also, I think the March 8th demonstration was misinterpreted. It was only a thank you demonstration, not asking them to stay!

9- Many people state that the March 8th parties are very honest, because they were Syria's allies from 1990-2005 and they REMAINED Syrian allies after 2005, unlike FM, PSP etc. Do you think that these parties still believe in the objectives that they had on March 8th, 2005? How did their opinion evolve?
I don't understand the question... What were their objectives on March 8th beside thanking Syria? They didn't ask it to stay...

10- Looking back now to 2005, was asking for the resignation of the March 8th government of Karame back then, a mistake? This question is mainly for FPMers, because at this point, most of the Ministers of that government are now FPM allies (Karame, Frangieh, Wahhab, Arslan, etc), hence, do you think that FPM's position in 2005, asking for the resignation of Karame, was a mistake or not?
No it wasn't. Things had to change. A crisis had occurred, and no crisis can be resolved without a change... A government of national unity had to be installed, and it did... No regrets. Elections were only a couple of months away so...

Thank you for your reply. I kind of understand where you are coming from, but I still got a couple of questions for you:
1- Your answer on 6 is a bit disturbing. So if you got two rotten apples you chose the one less rotten ? Why? As I said, I understand allying with HA or even Frangieh, they have a popular base, and they may be a better alternative than FM etc (at least from an FPM perspective). But why the alliance with others, that have 0 popularity, have been totally corrupt, and against everything that FPM stands for. They were sucking up to Syria just like FM and others (and no, no one is better in this case), so I wonder why you dont see anything wrong in this?

2- For question 9, basically what I mean is that, how can you trust those parties that may once again support Syria's invasion of Lebanon? (please do not tell me that 14 Feb are worse, this thread is to assess March 8th, not 14 Feb parties who, I agree with you maybe worse!)

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

As a reference, here's the thread of 8 March 2005:

The one milion man march

It would be interesting if some forumers can copy their post from 2005, and argument it (explain why they think it was wrong, if they changed their opinion) or back it up further (if they maintain their opinion).

[X]

Originally Posted by hhhh23

It would be interesting if some forumers can copy their post from 2005, and argument it (explain why they think it was wrong, if they changed their opinion) or back it up further (if they maintain their opinion).

I was against March 8 demonstration and raising Syrian flags and chanting pro Syrian slogans, now it has no meaning anymore because Syria in the end was defeated and left Lebanon.

March 8 and the things that were said in it is equal to (better say much less than) what Jomblat and Hariri and all their teams used to say about Syria one month before March 8.

[dodzi]

1- Your answer on 6 is a bit disturbing. So if you got two rotten apples you chose the one less rotten ? Why? As I said, I understand allying with HA or even Frangieh, they have a popular base, and they may be a better alternative than FM etc (at least from an FPM perspective). But why the alliance with others, that have 0 popularity, have been totally corrupt, and against everything that FPM stands for. They were sucking up to Syria just like FM and others (and no, no one is better in this case), so I wonder why you dont see anything wrong in this?

You said you can understand our alliance with HA and Frangieh... As far as I'm concerned, we are allied only with them. Our alliance with Amal isn't a formal alliance... If it were up to us, I don't think we would do it. In fact, as I said, I consider Berri as being part of the "old corrupt gang" that is Hariri, Gemayel, Joumblatt and Berri!

Who are those with "0" popularity you are talking about?

2- For question 9, basically what I mean is that, how can you trust those parties that may once again support Syria's invasion of Lebanon? (please do not tell me that 14 Feb are worse, this thread is to assess March 8th, not 14 Feb parties who, I agree with you maybe worse!)[/quote]

Good point, though if I can contradict you in one sense: HA never called for Syria's invasion of Lebanon... In fact, the alliance between HA and Syria started after Syria invaded Lebanon, during the Hariri years!

Also, when I debate with most M14ers, they attack me based on FPM's alliance with Berri (not Hezbollah), saying that he is the most corrupt person in Lebanon, and the person who stood the strongest with Syria! I always say I agree with them and that I don't trust him either. FPM made an agreement with HA, not Berri. We don't trust him, just as we don't trust Hariri, Gemayel or Jumblatt... Those 4 are the worst thing that happened to Lebanon in the last 3 decades! All other parties have blood or corruption on their hand, but not at the scale of those 4... Hence my position!

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by nizaryahya

I am very surprised and ashamed to see most of your racist, hateful, marginalizing comments referring to today's demonstration.

It is an insult to Lebanese people that more than 500,000 are considered sheep by other fellow Lebanese.

Why are these people against USA? because they know that F16's and Napalm that hit them are USA made.

Did Taef gave power to Hizballa or does Hizballa give power to Taef? Today's demonstration should answer you! Taef's administration hit Hizbala below the belt many times... Hizballa is popular not only in Lebanon. Most demonstrations in the Arab world asking for freedom, democracy hold Hizballa flags as an inspiration! So stop hiding behind your fingers and recognize their power.

One said that people do not go to Government authorities to solve problems and go to Hizballa officials for arbirtration, first this is legal, and second this tells you that those people do not trust the administration and trust someone else for the same corruption and treason reasons you have. Maybe this is a key point to see where all agree.

So stop being blind and make a decision. You either share the country with your people, or re-instate a civil war that you will sure lose unless you bring in foreign forces.

Most of the replies here are looking at how the demonstrations are seen by the Western media! This is alarming. Who is the western media?

Those are the Lebanese people, they gave you two weeks, you got Syria to agree to go out, and you kept marginalizing and "traitoring" and dehimanizing them... As you said to Syria "Enough", they are telling you "Enough, come to the table, or go to elections!". Appreciate that they gave you a prior notice of what the elections will look like.

Most of you still chose to dehumanize and marginalize them! And still you say they are splitting the country. As if the country is not spilt... Forced to come? what a shame to hear that.. were they also forced to fight Israel? forced to pray political prayers every friday in three places each with more than 100,000?

Men behind women and betting that the western media will see this as bad! This is outrageous! They have their own value system, and betting on the western media shows how much Lebanese you are!

There might be some people down there who are hardcore prosyrians, but they are the parasites, otherwise this demonstration would have marched long time ago. These also are Lebanese, and you have to address them if you chose to build a free democratic country! Whether you like it or not.

Now they said their word, and you should listen to what they are saying, exactly as they say it, not as the western/future/... say it.

1. They want the resistance to keep arms because it is the only victory in the Arab world, and the only gauarantee for their security. They take no ******** of UN, USA, and France guarantees, and they tried the Lebanese army and it failed.

2. They declared they wont betray Syria when Syria gets out. This says two things: They dont want Lebanon to move from the Non-American camp to the American camp.

3. They are saying we are Lebanese like you and lets sit down and talk and agree that democratic means are the way to settle problems.

and I add:

STOP betting on USA and France, STOP judging people by what others say about them, STOP the quality quantity hipocracy, STOP lobbying for sanctions against Syria, STOP attacking resistance in internatinal media, STOP your disgust and marshall court judgments, STOP the slogan negotiation with Syrians and not Lebanese, STOP giving your leadership to political clowns. GET your real man (or even better your own elected representatives) to the ground and let him talk with other Lebanese while you alternate chanting the Lebanese anthems in Martyr's sqaure with them (maybe one day you chant toghther!)

An interesting post by Nizar..

[Red Phoenix]

8 march was a mistake, 14march followed it by another mistake.

i was part of the second mistake, if i knew how 14march would be abused i would have not gone there to start with. i went down there with patriotic ideals (pro fpm), i went back home and heard bahia harriri shoeshinning syria (which was still occupying us that same freaking day!) i knew from then on that the march i went to isn't exactly what i supposed it to be.
it was to be used as a scam internally and externally.
everybody must have been smoking some pot that day.
it was a big mess of a day as march8 was.
ppl still delude themselves about those two marches.

me, i just want a refund hehe

[hhhh23]

Originally Posted by dodzi

1- Your answer on 6 is a bit disturbing. So if you got two rotten apples you chose the one less rotten ? Why? As I said, I understand allying with HA or even Frangieh, they have a popular base, and they may be a better alternative than FM etc (at least from an FPM perspective). But why the alliance with others, that have 0 popularity, have been totally corrupt, and against everything that FPM stands for. They were sucking up to Syria just like FM and others (and no, no one is better in this case), so I wonder why you dont see anything wrong in this?

You said you can understand our alliance with HA and Frangieh... As far as I'm concerned, we are allied only with them. Our alliance with Amal isn't a formal alliance... If it were up to us, I don't think we would do it. In fact, as I said, I consider Berri as being part of the "old corrupt gang" that is Hariri, Gemayel, Joumblatt and Berri!

Who are those with "0" popularity you are talking about?

2- For question 9, basically what I mean is that, how can you trust those parties that may once again support Syria's invasion of Lebanon? (please do not tell me that 14 Feb are worse, this thread is to assess March 8th, not 14 Feb parties who, I agree with you maybe worse!)

Good point, though if I can contradict you in one sense: HA never called for Syria's invasion of Lebanon... In fact, the alliance between HA and Syria started after Syria invaded Lebanon, during the Hariri years!

Also, when I debate with most M14ers, they attack me based on FPM's alliance with Berri (not Hezbollah), saying that he is the most corrupt person in Lebanon, and the person who stood the strongest with Syria! I always say I agree with them and that I don't trust him either. FPM made an agreement with HA, not Berri. We don't trust him, just as we don't trust Hariri, Gemayel or Jumblatt... Those 4 are the worst thing that happened to Lebanon in the last 3 decades! All other parties have blood or corruption on their hand, but not at the scale of those 4... Hence my position![/quote]

Well, I mean allying with SSNP for example is against FPM's stances, regardless of their popularity. Having Wahhab or similar figures on an FPM list is also against anything that FPM stands for, this is the part I am referring to. Even Karame, how can FPM accept to be on the same list with him? The point is that, it is understandable that FPM, if it wants to take some majority vs. 14 Feb, they need HA's MPs, but do they really need the others ?

One point is that, it is true that all parties have blood or corruption on their hands, but FPM wants to fight corruption and they can do so by alienating a large number of the parties that have blood/corruption on their hands, but they chose only a few. In other words, FPM, can run on its own as a party, allied with HA, with no need to accept any of the other factions of March 8th. By doing so, FPM would be fighting 90% of corruption (14 Feb + March 8 - HA), and would be standing up better to its values, at least, thats how I see it.