Lebanon's solution is an interim Federal State

[Ya-Shawish]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

All the complexities you bring up are no more complex than the current adhoc sectarian federalism that we have today and that leads to a dysfunctional state and recurring civil wars. Taking a hard look at this adhoc federalism and working to truly organize will be in my opinion much better than the status qo.

That said, I am not against outright partition either. If we can do that and evolve as separate states perhaps we can then over a long period of time become civil enough to reunify the country.... Or not. A long term solution is needed, and this form of country and government that we have today is not it.

The status quo is caused by power sharing and decision making. You still failed to tell me how you are going to implement the central government, and based on what you will form it. You don't even have a viable theory, because the minute you start theorizing about it you will be faced with the exact same problem that are having now. Who gets what! If you are able to figure this out on a federal level then we agree that there is no reason for you not to resolve this conflict without federalism, which I still think that it is a ludicrous idea.

Québec tried decorating separation with many words, partnership, sovereignty etc., but the reality it was pure separation which caused the federal government to come up with the famous C-20 (clarity bill in 1999) to make people distinguish between the two, so maybe you should simply say out loud and stop hitting around the bushes. A separate state is what you want, so stop decorating it because you know that federalism cannot be implemented in Lebanon because of the very same problem we are facing now.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by ecce homo

Yes because the goal is much different of what you want to achieve. When FPMers are looking for a secular democracy you are just looking for an excuse to implement federalism by taking the backdoor, because you know that the majority doesn't support your idea.

I want a secular democracy as well, but both you and I know that the population is still not ready and wont be ready for another 200 years, maybe more. What do you want the people to do in the interim? live in this stupid dysfunctional country and system. an interim solution is needed, and organized federalism or partition allows the divided entities to evolve for "200 years" in a the way they chose... Once the population is ready maybe each entity will adopt secular democracy on its own after which some form of reunification can be discussed.

Stop for a while, clear your mind and think. You will discover that what I am saying isn't much different than what you are saying.

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by Ya-Shawish

The status quo is caused by power sharing and decision making. You still failed to tell me how you are going to implement the central government, and based on what you will form it. You don't even have a viable theory, because the minute you start theorizing about it you will be faced with the exact same problem that are having now. Who gets what! If you are able to figure this out on a federal level then we agree that there is no reason for you not to resolve this conflict without federalism, which I still think that it is a ludicrous idea.

Québec tried decorating separation with many words, partnership, sovereignty etc., but the reality it was pure separation which caused the federal government to come up with the famous C-20 (clarity bill in 1999) to make people distinguish between the two, so maybe you should simply say out loud and stop hitting around the bushes. A separate state is what you want, so stop decorating it because you know that federalism cannot be implemented in Lebanon because of the very same problem we are facing now.

Think about it. Federalism isn't an idea, it is exactly the life and lie we are living every day with our current backwards system. We cloak federalism under the lie of "nizam tawafuki". We all need to admit it and move beyond this. Yes there are complexities, but admitting that we are already in a federal system allows us to think of courageous bold interim solutions. (The long term one, secular democracy, being unachievable for a long time)

[ecce homo]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

I want a secular democracy as well, but both you and I know that the population is still not ready and wont be ready for another 200 years, maybe more. What do you want the people to do in the interim? live in this stupid dysfunctional country and system. an interim solution is needed, and organized federalism or partition allows the divided entities to evolve for "200 years" in a the way they chose... Once the population is ready maybe each entity will adopt secular democracy on its own after which some form of reunification can be discussed.

Stop for a while, clear your mind and think. You will discover that what I am saying isn't much different than what you are saying.

With the right people in power a secular democracy is not far away. The problem in Lebanon has been its leadership, both political and religious.

With your answer above, you just confirmed what I wrote to you earlier.

[Ya-Shawish]

1-Joe, stop playing the innocent and give me one theory about how to implement a central government WITHOUT facing the same problems.

2-I can see your confusion between lifestyle and federalism...be carefull how you throw your word around ;). Federalism is consitutions and government insitutions not wearing bikinis in Jbeil!!!

[Armenian]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Lebanon as a country still needs to be built. It doesn't exist yet. It cant be built with weapons floating around. The first step to building together is removing all the weapons. ALL OF THEM. Otherwise no real discussions, reforms, or even a popular peaceful uprising, are possible.

If the people are not ready to relinquish their weapons first and discuss a common country, then multiple states and organized federation are needed. Today we have an ill-organized sectarian federation anyway, organizing it may help us progress individually as separate states to a point where we are civilly mature enough to discuss reunification at some point in the future.

Clearly defined and organized federalism can't be worse than the adhoc ill-organized tribal sectarian federalism that we have today anyway. Let every major sect have its state in a federally organized Lebanon. Let every major sect have its own state and geographical region of oversight. Its own president, parliament and its own ministers, its own police force and its own army. Heck if Hezbollah wants an Islamic state they can go for it, if Hariri want a mini Saudi more power to him and so on...

What you fail to realize is that your leaders GMA and Nasrallah are fine with a form of federalism anyway given their actions and approach to politics, except they are doing so within the confines of the ill-organized sectarian federalism that we already have. Lets be honest with ourselves and organize it under UN oversight.

Let me hear where and why you differ.

Dear Joseph,

We are not able to form ONE government now, so you are suggesting a system that has 5 Governments including a government similar to the one we are trying to form now??

Thank you!!

[Genius]

if the lebanese are sick, dividing them in cantons will not remove the disease.

What you need ya Aflaton is to open up the borders and EDUCATE the people on democracy and secularism.

Instead of healing, federalism will add more hatred !!

just a question , what happens if one converts ?? lol he has to move states ??

States based on sects .... SICK

[MockingBird]

Originally Posted by Ya-Shawish

The status quo is caused by power sharing and decision making. You still failed to tell me how you are going to implement the central government, and based on what you will form it. You don't even have a viable theory, because the minute you start theorizing about it you will be faced with the exact same problem that are having now. Who gets what! If you are able to figure this out on a federal level then we agree that there is no reason for you not to resolve this conflict without federalism, which I still think that it is a ludicrous idea.

Québec tried decorating separation with many words, partnership, sovereignty etc., but the reality it was pure separation which caused the federal government to come up with the famous C-20 (clarity bill in 1999) to make people distinguish between the two, so maybe you should simply say out loud and stop hitting around the bushes. A separate state is what you want, so stop decorating it because you know that federalism cannot be implemented in Lebanon because of the very same problem we are facing now.

federalism have nothing to do with seperatism
it's a solution to organise our internal differences - that are huge
we are a group of communities just like belgium or switzerland - your dreams of secularism are unfortunately not realistic - lebanese think live and act in a secterian way - it's inbedded in the culture and you can never change this !! even using dictatorships (check turkey, iraq, etc...)
a certain form of federalism should be found where each community elect their MPs and take care of its internal issues and development.
UAE is the example to follow - it works perfectly -
and guess what they all love their country deeply - our opposite....
cheers

[MockingBird]

Originally Posted by Armenian

Dear Joseph,

We are not able to form ONE government now, so you are suggesting a system that has 5 Governments including a government similar to the one we are trying to form now??

Thank you!!

if the central -federal goverment takes care of 30% of the problems (70% going to the federations)- the time and effort to form it will be 4 times less the current ...
thank you and cheers

[Jean]

If we go for Federalism, Lebanon would be divided into 3 mini-states i guess. A year later, groups inside these mini-states will ask for Federalism inside their cantons too. 5 years from now what was called Lebanon will be a group of more than 50 cantons.