Lebanon's solution is an interim Federal State

[Venom]

Lebanon is a hopeless case.........there is no solution for this country

[GeorgeY]

i say a state of anarachy, first with a revolution then stay in a state of anarchy
refuse to pay our external and internal debts until a decent solution is found
kill 1,000,000 citizen (divide them amongst the sects, a7san ma 7ada iz3al)
bring Saddam No 2 like previously mentioned, to finish the job well

until the world gives up on lebanon and then maybe there will be left some decent ppl to build this country
there will be lots of jobs because of the high loss in lives
no debts or at least fixed debts
Saddam No 2 will be overthrown
Lebanon will be prospering since he cant go worse than he is

and then maybe then federalism can work since most "diverse areas" would have killed everyone left not from their sect

ino anyway we r not living in a "country" all we are doing is working to increase the wealth of sheikh Saad

[SamerTayyar]

Im glad that many believe, whether sarcastic or not, that a dictator like Saddam Hussein

is the only way to reach a point where we could agree on history and identity and maintain

stability. Alla yir7amak ya Saddam!

[Ya-Shawish]

Ma into bit7ouro wo bitdouro la terja3o lal federalism.

Ah!!! You think you know what federalism is???

Ya habibe, federalism doesn’t work. On the contrary federalism is a recipe for disaster. Besides if you know what federalism is you wouldn’t be calling for it.

1-For federalism to work you need states with sovereign governing bodies sharing power with a central government. This means that people will have to elect two government, one national and central. Although electing a national state is relatively easy electing a central one will be a totally different story. How would you form the central government? Based on what criteria? Do you equally share power on the federation level? If yes what is preventing you doing the sharing power now? Ma a national unity government we can’t come up with let alone a central government.

2-Suppose that we succeeded in implementing federalism, which sound ridiculous and absurd for a small country like Lebanon at best, how do you make sure that the countries’ resources are fairly shared among all the Lebanese. Suppose that a nice oil well was discovered in, let’s say, kasslik area don’t you think that this gives an unfair advantage to the Christian state? What’s the guaranty that the other states won’t object to this and won’t ask for their share of the pie? What share are you willing to give if you should accept sharing? We are fighting over a single minister; imagine what it would be when the stakes are higher, like oil.

3-Take the weapons aside, but Hezbollah is being a state within a state, which you are against, yet you are calling to implement the very same concept?

Delusional at best, that's what the LF and Kataeb are...

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by GeorgeY

ikill 1,000,000 citizen (divide them amongst the sects, a7san ma 7ada iz3al)
bring Saddam No 2

Why does the solution have to be so radical and bloody? Cant we act civilised for once and look at the complex composition of the country and try to have an amicable separation?

Those who do not want separation are not so inclined because they fear any lost love for their "compatriots" but rather because they want to dominate them and have the cake to themselves or impose on the others their own idea of what the country should be even when they know quite well their ideas are not shared by anyone who does not belong to their sect. Those who want it have looked at the empirical evidence and found co-existence to be no more than a mirage and a lie which politicians and religious leaders propagate when none of them really believe it.

[joseph_lubnan]

All the complexities you bring up are no more complex than the current adhoc sectarian federalism that we have today and that leads to a dysfunctional state and recurring civil wars. Taking a hard look at this adhoc federalism and working to truly organize will be in my opinion much better than the status qo.

That said, I am not against outright partition either. If we can do that and evolve as separate states perhaps we can then over a long period of time become civil enough to reunify the country.... Or not. A long term solution is needed, and this form of country and government that we have today is not it.

We need to start saying it like it is: Today we already have an unwritten ill-organized backroom-deal mafia-like sectarian, federal system. What do you think the governance system in Lebanon today is? What do you think all these requests for further "constitutional reforms" are? What do you think the Taef was? We need instead a documented workable sectarian federal system, instead of all these interpretable nuances and philosophical notions of "sharing". We as a population are deluding ourselves, we should stop that so we can move forward.

If you think about it, when FPMers say they want to "for now" work "within the system" because it will take a long long time for us to be able to have a secular democracy... Is that position much different than what I am proposing? Except I am saying it like it is, and saying it like it is is what is needed for this country to move forward.

[MockingBird]

Originally Posted by Rising Phoenix

It's very easy to issue some theory about federalism. I'm not saying that it couldn't represent a solution. But by issuing such ideas, many crucial question arise:

1. what would be the status of cities and villages like: Bcharreh, Jezzine, Deir el Ahmar, Qa3, Kobeiyat, Zahleh, Qob Elias, Marje3youn, Deir el Kamar...?
2. What would be the status of christians living in predominant Muslim areas
3. what would be the status of Jabal Mohssen
4. How do you see Lebanon's foreign policy?
5. What would be the economical status of a Christian area surrounded geographically by Muslim areas and countries
6. How could you reach an agreement, as a Christian, with walid joumblatt in the mountain?

1-bcharre, deir el ahmar and zahleh are adjacent to the mountain - all other can be exclave/enclave - geographic continuity and size is not an issue - check switzerland / UAE/ Belgium/ austria/ etc...
2-like their current status - anyway even with the 1960 law they don't elect their MP's!! same goes for the opposite
3-A nice hill in the north ! negligeable
4-let the chi3a area wage war against israel ....
5-this is the main problem contrast will appear - because despite years of being deprived of state funds they remain the best and by far - people make countries not money and not arab investors
6-christian villages are concentrated along the same axis in chouf - it could be a very nice enclave if jumbi agrees that its inhabitants return of course
cheers

[GeorgeY]

Originally Posted by shadow1

Why does the solution have to be so radical and bloody? Cant we act civilised for once and look at the complex composition of the country and try to have an amicable separation?

Those who do not want separation are not so inclined because they fear any lost love for their "compatriots" but rather because they want to dominate them and have the cake to themselves or impose on the others their own idea of what the country should be even when they know quite well their ideas are not shared by anyone who does not belong to their sect. Those who want it have looked at the empirical evidence and found co-existence to be no more than a mirage and a lie which politicians and religious leaders propagate when none of them really believe it.

killing the ppl are just for the jobs ;)

u have to understand that "co-existence" is not a mirage.
all lebanese ppl co-exist it is the leader that "sometimes" do not co-exist and other times are more than co-exist to even "unified"
khallasna maskharra 3al 3alam, federalism iza 3am ti7ki jadd answer me those questions please

shou bisir bil 50 bil debts?
shou bisir bil income like mentioned previously if an oil well is found?
shou bisir if our tourists decided to only go to "sunni or shi3i" parts of lebanon?
what if i work in beirut and live in jbeil, where do i pay taxes? ya3ni if my company makes 1 mil USD in beirut, will the taxes go to my place of birth?
didnt beirut get a big share of the re-building wouldnt that give her a head start?
bass the biggest question, will that solve the problems amongst lebanese? ino the problems we r facing are only locations on maps?

those questions are just the silly parts of federalism when u go into more details and logical details u will find that u r still in the same place, LEBANON DIVIDED AMONGST SECTS

[Salmoun]

Originally Posted by SamerTayyar

Im glad that many believe, whether sarcastic or not, that a dictator like Saddam Hussein

is the only way to reach a point where we could agree on history and identity and maintain

stability. Alla yir7amak ya Saddam!

Samer,

Only a dictator can help this county. of course not like Saddam.

I think someone like Kamal Ataturk. someone who:
1- Love his country
2- Have a vision of the future
3- Not attached to a religion or sect
4- Are not afraid to kick the a** of anyone (religious figures, political families, etc.)

This is the only hope of this country. Federalism and all those silly solutions are waste of time.

regards,

[ecce homo]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

If you think about it, when FPMers say they want to "for now" work "within the system" because it will take a long long time for us to be able to have a secular democracy... Is that position much different than what I am proposing? Except I am saying it like it is, and saying it like it is is what is needed for this country to move forward.

Yes because the goal is much different of what you want to achieve. When FPMers are looking for a secular democracy you are just looking for an excuse to implement federalism by taking the backdoor, because you know that the majority doesn't support your idea.