Lebanon: Back to the future.

[Observer]

http://tiny.cc/tX3sj Bashir jemayel learning from his master. Thanks 2 angry arab blog

[NEVER_BACK_DOWN]

Originally Posted by Observer

http://tiny.cc/tX3sj Bashir jemayel learning from his master. Thanks 2 angry arab blog

Observer
The link is not working

[Dalzi]

Lebanon has about 400,000 inhabitants, gathered into more than six hundred towns, villages and hamlets...The various religions and sects live together, and practice their conflicting superstitions in close proximity, but the people do not coalesce into one homogeneous community, nor do they regard each other with fraternal feelings. The Sunnites excommunicate the Shiites - both hate the Druse, and all three detest the Nusairiyeh. The Maronites have no particular love for anybody and, in turn, are disliked by all. The Greeks cannot endure the Greek Catholics; all despise the Jews.

Spot on observations...

They're ignorant and they've always been ignorant; the most ignorant on planet earth. Go join discussions as an outsider in disguise in each community and enjoy the ignorance . They don't even know anything about themselves to know anything about the other. They're TRIBAL; just missing the tents.

There is no hope for them, they either need extermination or an atheist dictator.

Originally Posted by supersonichadi

It's your duty to fix these things, even if it's not working.

To hell, we live only once. IF my mind can leave me at peace, I'd flush that duty down the pipe.

[Observer]

Originally Posted by NEVER_BACK_DOWN

Observer
The link is not working

I just tried it. weird. anyway u can visit angry arab blog. it is there.

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Observer

I just tried it. weird. anyway u can visit angry arab blog. it is there.

You mean the picture? That's just one pic, i've seen hugs and stuff lol... Been looking for them but they've vanished off the net... If someone is ready to stand next to Sharon, the "King of Isreal", the man who commited his first murder when he was still a teenager and whose hands are soaked with the blood of the innocent, then I don't know what to label that person... That only goes to prove how much he despised Muslims. The funny thing is that we were supposed to have accepted him as "President" LOL! In anycase, Lebanon is a sin. There's no such thing as a 'country' called Lebanon, it's tribes that are forced to live together when they obviously can't and don't want to. We can romanticize as much as we want, but facts are facts; it's a zoo. I share nothing with a crusade LFer or a Wahhabe terrorist to feel that we should share the same nationality. I prefer to identify myself by my convictions, not by nationality. I'm not proud of being "Lebanese", I'm proud of being who I am and I'm only ready to acknowledge those whom I respect as human beings. The rest can go to hell and enjoy their stay for the least I care to be honest... The sooner they depart the better too...

Cheers

[shadow1]

Originally Posted by hannaalsayssa

so true then
so true today

why bother sometimes to fix things i say.

Every dark cloud has a silver lining and it's one's duty to society to keep one's chin up and to look at the bright side.

At least we dont need to wonder what our future is going to be like because we already have seen it and still do. We dont need to get used to a new social and political landscape and hence we should be grateful we will always be on familiar ground protected from life's surprises by our nature to keep so faithful to our traditions.

As to your question of why bother to fix things. Yes indeed why bother since we always seem to go back to the future and its familiar ground.

Perhaps we'd do ourselves a great favour if we just convince ourselves that we are not heading anywhere and plan accordingly. Simply wishing we were somewhere other than where we are requires too much talent to waste on facing the truth.
My solution: declare it a defunct state and put it under UN administration.

[freemind]

I read this sometime long ago.

All what Lebanese need to do is live their lives without pondering much into politics.

People move forward, in Lebanon people move backwards, people all around the world secularise, in Lebanon muslems that don't fast on Ramadan are looked at with disgust; or Christians that don't care about saints are looked at as muslem traitors.

With parties like Hezballa and Ouwet... leb is goin nowhere.

[LiNk]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

To each nation its own solution.

I don't necessarily out rule any kind of solution that guarantees a peaceful living provided it preserves a united nation.

Yes indeed.
But still, we can always try drawing conclusions from other nations exploits.

I don't necessarily out rule any kind of solution that guarantees a peaceful living provided it preserves a united nation.

But honestly...I don't think that the Swiss model fits that much the Lebanese formula,for many reasons, and yes, maturity being also one of them.(But then, with maturity, we might not even be in this messy situation for a start.)

The Swiss model is far from being THE magical solution for the appropriate formula we seek. However, it holds several aspects and traits that might lead us to some kind of political stability. Neutrality is one of them.

Neutrality is often mistakingly confounded with partition, federalism and all the buzz that comes with it. Nonetheless, it does not mean in any way that we should be a weak nation, or a country detached from the reality surrounding it. We would be in a condition of armed neutrality, keeping the right of defending ourselves against any foreigner threatening our land and interests. On the other hand, we would be non-aligned, staying neutral and avoiding military alliances in possible (and likely to happen) regional confrontations.

These ideas, are of course unlikely to happen now, particularly when we still have pending issues with our lovely neighbors. Anyhow, taking into consideration our very long history of discord when it comes to regional conflicts, neutrality would then become a viable solution. Our interests being one day hopefully preserved, a new way of thinking would be nurtured amongst us and we would finally learn on how we should only care for our own country's welfare. Other issues being of secondary importance.

I think that we're in a stage where we have only one choice, which is to push towards a central power system of State, and that any other solution might rather lead to wars and chaos and economical failure and disintegration, that will in its turn lead to having parts of the country swallowed by neighbors around us, and other parts ruled by foreign powers, all of those parts, being administered by Lebanese Mafia and underdogs.

My vision of the Lebanese State, is of a strong State, ruling over all the territory and all its citizens, and in a strongly decentralized administrative formula. Which is feasible...

Your vision of a strong state is totally concordant with that of positive-armed-neutrality. One does not contradict the other, quite on the contrary, they would be two basic steps for laying the foundations of a stable state.

[hannaalsayssa]

Originally Posted by freemind

I read this sometime long ago.

All what Lebanese need to do is live their lives without pondering much into politics.

People move forward, in Lebanon people move backwards, people all around the world secularise, in Lebanon muslems that don't fast on Ramadan are looked at with disgust; or Christians that don't care about saints are looked at as muslem traitors.

With parties like Hezballa and Ouwet... leb is goin nowhere.

we are heading towards becoming an afghanistan/pakistan look alike.

another 10 years of saudi rules and we are beyond failed state.
our country will be destitute.

i see no silver lining what so ever neitehr in the near future nor in the distant one.

[Salome]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

The Italians were never united until they found a solution.

The Swiss were never united until they found a solution.

.................

Yalla Henit...We're getting there...We're only divided in 2 camps nowadays...Like Spain under Franco...But without Franco *sigh*

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

To each nation its own solution.

I don't necessarily out rule any kind of solution that guarantees a peaceful living provided it preserves a united nation.

But honestly...I don't think that the Swiss model fits that much the Lebanese formula,for many reasons, and yes, maturity being also one of them.(But then, with maturity, we might not even be in this messy situation for a start.)

I think that we're in a stage where we have only one choice, which is to push towards a central power system of State, and that any other solution might rather lead to wars and chaos and economical failure and disintegration, that will in its turn lead to having parts of the country swallowed by neighbors around us, and other parts ruled by foreign powers, all of those parts, being administered by Lebanese Mafia and underdogs.

My vision of the Lebanese State, is of a strong State, ruling over all the territory and all its citizens, and in a strongly decentralized administrative formula. Which is feasible...

Good spot ons Abou S

It might sound simple, it all depends on whether people come to their senses or not. Of course practice and 7th June showed us it is far more complicated.

One may wonder what can unite the Lebanese, what is that common denominator? Is it history? It can be up to a certain grade, like suffering and prospering together...but even that was selective and uneven. The understanding of a common heritage might also vary by the different communities....no common history interpretation, no common concept of origin (although I dont get whats the problem with the phonecian ancestors, since their genes is present in all Lebanese regardless of religion..)..no common concept how the state shall look like.

This latter is very crucial, since it will define the most the future of the country.
Like we have some comedian politicians who are aware of the need for secularism, they even preach about their great benefits yet they would never start applying themselves. The leaders are greedy, corrupt and ready to sell the country any time to the highest bidder. (respect maybe to that two leaders who could remain honest in this dirty mud)

So how do you start building a democratic country without real democrats?? (using the term of Ghassan Salamé).
There is one leader only who truly believes in democratic values, and only his supporters are ready to implement real democracy in Lebanon, coupled with secularism. And the rest? Well they rather wittness how the country is sinking slowly but surely. Did they realize they are also going under with it??

The only way out I could see if that 60% (guessing) would be hit by a powerful lightning and got enlightened suddenly...so that the criminal politicians could be swept out from Lebanon. Then there is a need for a strong government and a strong army (as strong as it can be) which would further promote the value of coexistence and tolerance.
This strong government would work on the more even development of the country, and be inclusive rather than exclusive, would be dedicated to the well-being of all Lebanese. This government would know its true enemies, and would protect the borders, and would not allow foreign meddling into politics.

Then the idea of a neutral Lebanon would make sense, and Lebanon might serve as a mediator in conflicts.

Indeed one can learn from the Swiss model, just 150 years ago they were butchering each others in a civil war, and look now how they managed to come over their differences. There is surely always a tension how to keep the balance and there are querrels now and then, but dont they do just fine??

And why??

Because they realized if they want to build a successful country, they have to stop being sectarian. PERIOD.