Lebanese Sovereignty, and Wilayat Al Fiqh,

[achaaban]

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

as for Abir,


Hi.

welcome back although did not know you where gone?? Stay, plz.. lol.. its not as fun without you

I am looking forward to Hezbollah the member to seeing and replying to this,

furthermore, Would you like to engage on diplomatic initiatives to bring Hizbulla Closer to the Lebanese Center??

regds,

bodhi.


p.S: did you write this and if so, Good Lord Woman, how long did it take?!

Hezbollah will not reply, non of the followers of this ideology will reply, one important aspect of organizations like Hezbollah, and the Islamists in gereral is that they believe that what they say is the only thing that is right, because their ulama tells them that it is the only correct interpretation of the words of God. For an individual to be able to reason these interpretations is something that is beyond their way of thinking. So arguing about the state and the Lebanese and the system and rights is on its own is a taboo within the context of the ideological thinking of followers of the policy of violence.

P.S. I also thought I missed the forum, and especially you the good news is that my computer crashed, so I am at the library right now , and the ban was good since I had to mark a mid term, I also researched this article above and ended up writing it. The ban has helped me adopt a new strategy to discuss my views, and I have also created a blog. So I am a blogger.

[Bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by achaaban

Hezbollah will not reply, non of the followers of this ideology will reply, one important aspect of organizations like Hezbollah, and the Islamists in gereral is that they believe that what they say is the only thing that is right, because their ulama tells them that it is the only correct interpretation of the words of God. For an individual to be able to reason these interpretations is something that is beyond their way of thinking. So arguing about the state and the Lebanese and the system and rights is on its own is a taboo within the context of the ideological thinking of followers of the policy of violence.

P.S. I also thought I missed the forum, and especially you the good news is that my computer crashed, so I am at the library right now , and the ban was good since I had to mark a mid term, I also researched this article above and ended up writing it. The ban has helped me adopt a new strategy to discuss my views, and I have also created a blog. So I am a blogger.

Dearest Abir, AKA the "Crosser",

Wether Hezbollah replies or not, im afraid a lonesome lebanese nationalistic idealist like myself cannot and will not shift course. Simply put, i cant shift course.. it is not an optional temperament, tis a genetic course that dictates to you the Journey of the Lebanese Dreamer.

Im in the Boat that is Lebanon and will Work with all Lebanese regardless wether theyre armed to the teeth with dental floss or weapons. Thus is my eteranal dillema dearest achaa and the eternal struggle of the once dying breed of lebanese dreamers that have been resurrected twice in 2000 and in 2005.

Hence, Abir, you would service me and my dream of Lebanon greatly and tantamously if you are able to help me and my Lebanese Brother of Hizbullah's political Orientation bridge the Gap between us, and center closer gravitating on Lebanon and only Lebanon. Your advise and your relection is needed..

Be Generous,

Bodhisattva.


p.S: tis was the 3rd day when i realized that the unique flavour that Achaa brings to LFPM has gone missing, and reckless me, tis was the 4th or 5th day when i recognized that she was banned (thankfully, tis was a temporary measure, as it is never advisable to take radical permanent measures of exiling, banning, etc.. etc.. etc..) the Lebanese and ESPECIALLY FPM have suffered a great deal on the white and black hollywood logic of absolutes. Do tell me about this new breakthough approach you have realized, perhaps i can learn from it and assimilate it into become a more effective patriot.. Furhtermore, kindly PM me your blog site or link it in your Profile Details as your website..

lebanese dreamer,

bodhi.

[Bodhisattva]

Originally Posted by Stanfordee

Oh one more thing, for the millionth time Fadlallah is not Hizbullah spiritual leader. If he was, we would have been in great shape.

Stanfordee,

you would be doing me a great favour if you list to me the Shiite Clerics, and Members of the Community that have substantial influence on the Community and on Hizbulla and are moderate.

And do you think they can be integrated in an overall mechanism that will help the other lebanese sides and hizbulla meet closer to the center!

regds,

Bodhi.

[HezbollaH]

aachaban;

With all consideration to the time and effort you apparently spent on writing this long thread, its sorry to notice that your claims are simply unfounded. No base, no evidence of many of the claims.

SHOW me (and the others) WHERE is Hezbollah applying the Wilayat Al Faqih politically?

WHERE did Sama7at Al Sayyed Hasan Nasrullah declare that he and his party are applying Iranian principles and objectives?

I have a maronite friend who lives in the south. He was worried Hezbollah would impose policies on him and his family when he wanted to return back after the liberation. He was even afraid he would be harmed.

Few days later he called me saying "ma fi darbit kaff!"

Its time to support your claims with credible evidence, or you'd be wasting your time. Sorry!

[taifoon]

Achaaban

I salute your devotion to what you beleive in and write so well about.
Although i share your concerns on this issue, and myself having been until lately one of the fiercest Hizballahs political opponents on this forum and outside, i have come up with the following conclusion concerning our present status:

We have a problem with Hizballahs arms. Admitted.

Our knowledge about Hizballahs fundamentalism and outspoken ideology based on mostly past and few present various statements and other political stances tells us that this party is religiousely well tied to the Iranian cleriks and has much in common with the iranian islamic revolution from shiits perspective as such.
All that we know. But let us also be aware of the whys behind the whats, because there are allways whys behind whats.
Get rid of the whys, and we will have started to cure the whats. All in due time.

there is also one more dimension to it:
No matter the whats for now on this issue, Hizballahs community constitues, just as any other community in Lebanon, our brothers and lebanese compatriots and there is no way we can convert them into not being where they are or who they are now, other than dialoguing and coming closer to them through equal respect and understanding.
Their destiny is in fact tied to ours and ours to theirs.
Harm inflicted on them will be painfull for us, and vise versa.
This is a very cold naked truth. So, that said, where do we go from here?

As for the subject of the thread, i honestly don't share your fears: There's ZERO% chance that Wilayat Al fakih could ever get implemented in Lebanon as a fact affecting daily life even among our shiit community, simply because we equally share the country and are a highly vivid and interacting society by design which makes it nearly impossible to isolate the shia community effectively in order for that religious ruling matrix to succeed and survive. There's no way you can protect many of our young 'horny' teenagers from 'unhealthy and unreligious influences' hearing Madonnas disco-shouting ' like a virgine' while driving across the beach alleys all along our coastside.. Add to that education: The web will be embrassing the generation of today and no boundaries can ever help stop the evolution..

Oh, and most importantly: The iranian people themselves, and specially the students generation will never allow that to happen in Iran itself..!!

Signs are there allright, and its an ongoing fight in Iran between the moderates(youn people mostly) and the extremists.. And that you can tell from the last Iranian presidents statement about vanishing Israel:
Did you ever dream of him addressing the outside world with that statement? Do you think he is THAT stupid?????
It was all meant for domestic consumption, and hence there you have the signs of Wilayat El Fakih never ever becoming more than deep religious dream in our country..

[Stan]

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

Stanfordee,
you would be doing me a great favour if you list to me the Shiite Clerics, and Members of the Community that have substantial influence on the Community and on Hizbulla and are moderate.
And do you think they can be integrated in an overall mechanism that will help the other lebanese sides and hizbulla meet closer to the center!
regds,
Bodhi.

Bodhi
1) Hizballah has always maintained a low profile. Their strategy is to keep their opponents in the dark. And this is why you see all sorts of weird and unfounded stories fabricated around them ( similar to what achaaban is doing intentionaly or unintentionaly). Note here that this policy was succesfull at one stage of time but soon enough they will have to reconsider it.
2) People tend to generalize when it comes to Hizbullah base. There is no doubt that some fraction of the base is endoctrinated, but its wrong to generalize as achaaban is doing and include the whole base.
3) There is no doubt that Hizb religious authority is in Iran. This is the main and probably the only cause of divergence between them and Samahet el Cheikh Fadlallah who opts for a more local version of Wilayat el Faqih. Other than that, Fadlallah was always the wise and moderate mediator but never the spiritual leader.
4) Now as to Wilayat el Faqih, I remember in an interview with Zahi wehbi, Nasrallah answered a question related to this. He said that the whole thing is being exagerated. But he admited that there is complete coordination and agreement with the religious authorities in Iran on a set of goals. Based on these goals, the Hizb establishes all his moves and actions with a large degree of freedom.

[terror]

Originally Posted by Stanfordee

2) People tend to generalize when it comes to Hizbullah base. There is no doubt that some fraction of the base is endoctrinated, but its wrong to generalize as achaaban is doing and include the whole base.

I agree, of course, except the part that has to do with achaaban- I think she made the distinction when she mentioned that Wilayet el Fakih is imposed on the majority of the people.

But so anyway, yes it often happens that when I meet Southerners and ask them about their political affiliation, they label themselves as mere sympathizers with Hezbollah, as opposed to core Hezbollah supporters and backers of the party's Islamic ideology.

My understanding of the matter is that a great deal of the Shias' sympathy for Hezbollah is merely a result of some fraternal sectarian bond between members of the same sect, which sort of applies to all sects in Lebanon anyway.

Well to me, that doesn't mean that by any means that Hezbollah are much less of a threat. It simply means that, maybe, just maybe it would pay off to start a non-provocative dialogue about this issue. It all depends on the proportion of the core when compared to the sympathizers.

[achaaban]

Originally Posted by HezbollaH

aachaban;

With all consideration to the time and effort you apparently spent on writing this long thread, its sorry to notice that your claims are simply unfounded. No base, no evidence of many of the claims.

SHOW me (and the others) WHERE is Hezbollah applying the Wilayat Al Faqih politically?

WHERE did Sama7at Al Sayyed Hasan Nasrullah declare that he and his party are applying Iranian principles and objectives?

I have a maronite friend who lives in the south. He was worried Hezbollah would impose policies on him and his family when he wanted to return back after the liberation. He was even afraid he would be harmed.

Few days later he called me saying "ma fi darbit kaff!"

Its time to support your claims with credible evidence, or you'd be wasting your time. Sorry!

Dear Hezbollah,

I appreciate your response and I assure you that my article is well sourced. Since I am on one of the University computers and I do not have my reference handy, I cannot send them to you now, but I promise to send you a Private Message with the sources I consulted about Nasrallah’s statements?

I am surely not wasting my time by discussing a fundamental issue that I as a Lebanese citizen and as a Shiite from the south of Lebanon am gravely concerned about. This issue is what has been haunting us Lebanese since we had ever become a state and that is the fact of War. We lived through one war after the other and all of these wars were a result of a foreign country that wanted to fragment us by selling us an ideology, hiring people in the name of ideologies, and calling for our destruction while they the foreign countries are satisfying a national interest of that specific state.

Hezbollah could legally be a political party that is a participant in the Lebanese government, even if Hezbollah does not believe in secularism, the Jewish religious fundamentalists in Israel, as well as the Christian Fundamentalists in the United Sates do participate in government and they do express their political demands. But these demands are normally carried on in a political process where the representatives of government have to take a vote on fundamental issues; these groups as well do not carry arms outside the parameters of government that they do participate in as representatives of the people.

The issue of Hezbollah’s arms and the lack of possibilities of any peace negotiations in the near future is fundamental for the well being of Lebanon and the well being of all the Lebanese people regardless to their sect. The fundamental difference between you and I is that I see the security of the state as essential to the security of the people inside the state, while you see the security of the south as essential to the security of the Shiite sect of the south. I see this as a fundamental difference. Since according to Hezbollah, the region of the South has become a region where they have claimed victory and a right to sovereignty. At the time being the Lebanese Government is negotiating with Hezbollah the issue of their weapons, so that the Lebanese government could restore its sovereignty over the whole state of Lebanon. Hezbollah then, is acting as an opponent to the Lebanese government, because Hezbollah is not in agreement with the foundations of the government that it had participated in. Actually, such negotiations if they reach a dead end will simply mean another civil war in Lebanon. This time it will be brought on us by Hezbollah and their Iranian and Syrian support. In the old days it used to be the Sunnis and their Syrian and Palestinian support. So what has happened during this long history of wars is that we are changing the ones who will continue the state of war and uncertainty in the country instead of understanding that, it is these wars that have brought us to these levels of poverty and inability to cope with the rest of the world.

Hezbollah is a participant in the Lebanese government and is expected to protect the Lebanese people and the interests of the Lebanese people. However, that is not what your leadership is saying; your leadership is saying that Hezbollah will keep its arms until the whole of Palestine is liberated. I personally want my representatives to be working on issues such develop the human potential of the Lebanese people; I want the economy to get better so that I can come back to Lebanon and still get a job, I want to be paid with a currency that will allow me to travel for a summer vacation, I want to be able to save for my old age, I want a government that has an old pension plan, free education, equal rights of all citizens. Unfortunately, Hezbollah’s arms and the possible outbreak of war, and the rejection for peace, means that I will die in exile and hopefully someone will be able to change Lebanon, but I will always say at least I tried.

[LebaneseARAB]

Originally Posted by achaaban

I want the economy to get better so that I can come back to Lebanon and still get a job, I want to be paid with a currency that will allow me to travel for a summer vacation, I want to be able to save for my old age, I want a government that has an old pension plan, free education, equal rights of all citizens. Unfortunately, Hezbollah’s arms and the possible outbreak of war, and the rejection for peace, means that I will die in exile and hopefully someone will be able to change Lebanon, but I will always say at least I tried.

Please stop exxagerating Hizballahs role in the weak economy and the status of Lebanon. Hizballah only exist in Lebanon but economic problems, poverty, small middle class, huge gap between rich and poor, equal rights, pension plans, free education are problems the whole world faces.

Lebanese are not the only ones who want these things, people all over the world want these things and cannot get them and they do not have a Hizballah in their country, removing HIzballah will not solve Lebanons economic problem and allow you to save up money to go on vacation in the summer, this is a bit exxageration of Hizballahs role.

Capitalism and the unfair distribution of wealth under a capitalist system is responsible for these economic problems world-wide not Hizballah.

[achaaban]

Originally Posted by Bodhisattva

Hence, Abir, you would service me and my dream of Lebanon greatly and tantamously if you are able to help me and my Lebanese Brother of Hizbullah's political Orientation bridge the Gap between us, and center closer gravitating on Lebanon and only Lebanon. Your advise and your relection is needed..

Be Generous,

Bodhisattva.

I read a book a while ago that was written by Paulo Freire, and is called the Pedagogy of the Oppressed, Freiri writes his book out of his experience with the oppressed people in Brazil. Freiri argues that when the oppressed are liberated they see freedom in the image of their oppressor, so to be free they presume that they have to adopt similar roles as those who have oppressed them. The liberator will consequently become the oppressor because the liberators did not involve with them with dialogue through education.

If you try to apply Freiri’s argument to the current world you will realize that most revolutions except for a few have succeeded only recreating a system of oppression that has replaced the one that the revolutionaries have rebelled against. Freiri argues that for Revolutions to liberate the oppressed rather than recreate the cycle of oppression, the best way for teaching the oppressed is not to inundate them with one’s own ideological perspective, but rather to enter into a relationship of solidarity with them wherein the role of teacher and student are more fluid, and especially in the case of the teacher, are willing to learn from their subjects.

Thus for a Revolution to be successful in liberating the people who are oppressed, the education to the newly liberated people should focus on the meaning of freedom, rather than on the ideology that brought freedom. This way you will be creating a liberated society that is free because that is what they gained out of their revolution. The American and the French Revolutions are two of the bloodiest, yet the most successful revolutions, in the history of revolutions, while the Russian and the Iranian revolutions got so involved in ideological indoctrinations that replaced the old Czars and Shah’s with Secret services and violence.

The issue of joining in solidarity with the Shiites is not an issue that is focused on pleasing Hezbollah and their ideology; it is the issue of joining the Shiites of Lebanon in solidarity with the rest of Lebanon.

Hezbollah is a political party that has the support of the Southerners in the South of Lebanon, but the southerners are people who have no interest in being a member of the organization or even maintain a position of political power. They are like me and you, they have dreams, and they are poor. To solve the problem of Hezbollah is to solve the problem of Lebanon. Could the Lebanese government at the time being invest in the South for the well being of the people of the South? What are the programs that are in place that are being planned for the South by the Government? I do not know the answers for these questions. At the time being all what I know is that Iranian oil and money are the ones who are feeding the Shiite Southerners, bringing them into the system in solidarity with the rest of the country cannot happen while they are hungry. I am pessimist when it comes to the situation in the South, because the Lebanese Government has not developed any substantive programs that will make the Shiites of the South feel that they are Lebanese citizens who are participants in the Lebanese government, that they have rights and that their standard of living is being taken care off.

As for Hezbollah I think that any situation that will bring about their participation in a civil war with the government will not be taken lightly by the Southerners, simply because the Shiite of South Lebanon will have to strap themselves with explosives and kill a Lebanese soldier, and not an Israeli soldier.