Lebanese living outside will vote

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

Why complicate the issues?

Anyone holding a Lebanese citizenship is entitled by the constitution to vote.

Out of the millions of Lebanese expatriates, only a small percentage hold a Lebanese citizenship. Only those are entitled to vote.

There is nothing that can or should categorize or differentiate between those holding the Lebanese citizenship in terms of their voting rights.

They, whether inside or outside of Lebanon, vote for the same Caza candidates as they would have voted had they been living inside Lebanon, and according to the same electoral law.

It is the State's duty and job to make it possible and reasonably easy for them to cast their vote, inside and outside Lebanon. That's all.

The State has no other obligation to them as in giving them any "special" representation.

This is no different than while I am living outside my original place of residence in the USA, I can ask the elections authority in my original State to send me an "absentee ballot" so I can cast my vote from wherever I happen to be living, inside or outside the USA.

If there is a will to make it happen, it's not prohibitively difficult to make it happen in 2009.

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This can be done too.That's no doubtly the easiest process to do.

But Lebanon has social dynamics different from the US or GB,or even France.(Much closer to the Suiss model actually).

It is not necessarily better to have the same process as some others,even if they are the best of the democracies.Actually,each society should find the way that suits it best...Whatever that could be.

But by my point,i was aiming for better results and goals,than merely ensuring the simple right to vote.

I think that the right to be accurately and fairly represented is more important than the right to vote,in itself.

And in a country asking for proportional/more accurate representation and/or for small districts to ensure a closer contact between the voter and the candidate,one can imagine that sooner or later,expats will not feel represented as they should be,or at least,they will ask for more specific representation.A "proximity representation".

I know that you are an expat Mirka,but you are also an active political cadre in a specific political Party.

So you could maybe not see/feel,a big difference in the electoral outcome,whether expats make the Party win a seat,as "FPM Jounieh" (I hear someone objecting...hehe) or as "US expat representative-FPM "...A seat is a seat after all.

But to them,there is a difference.A very big difference.

Tayyeb let's just take it from a pure practical realistic angle:

For example, as an ex-expat myself,non politically interested or affiliated,I can assure you that Lebanese politics was the least of my concerns.I was rather immersed and interested in the political life of my country of residence.

Not because i didn't have the right to vote.But because I couldn't feel myself belonging to the Lebanese political assembly and system as a whole.

It's might be a simple feeling...I know...But it makes the whole difference.

Now,on the other hand,

If i had the right to vote for someone who was to represent,me (as a specific expat),my condition,my state of mind,my goals and my visions,someone who i could be in touch with,someone whom i know well enough,and have this someone be my "special envoyee" to the Lebanese assembly...I would then probably,always feel that i have a special tie with Lebanon...Since there is a place there,reserved specifically to me.

Otherwise,my vote will become more and more casual...And soon enough...I would probably be too lazy to go and cast my voice.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

What you are asking for here, I would categorize under "enticements" not under "rights".

There are many other effective ways to "entice" the expatriates to stay in touch with, invest in, or come back to Lebanon.

But first give them their "rights"... the basic right to vote. I think this will be the first, largest and best "enticement".

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Fair enough.

But it's not that i'm just asking for "enticement".What i'm saying is that close accurate and specific representation, could have positive effects on "enticement".

And the opposite could have negative effects,not to mention that sooner or later,it will also affect the whole process.

In both ways you're giving people the right to vote...there is no doubt about that.

But i seek the best representation...And i'm just citing the "enticement" issue,as one of the benefits of more accurate and proximate representation.

[Abou Sandal]

PS:Just as reminder,i'm specifically talking in my latest posts about the expats that have been permanently residing outside Lebanon for a long time...Those ones IMHO need a better and more accurate and specific representation,and i think that sooner or later,they will ask for it....But others can simply vote like Lebanese residents and follow the usual process.

It's even weird that this process of voting in embassies is still not implemented.There is no convincing arguments to justify not doing it yet.

[Amirkani]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

This can be done too.That's no doubtly the easiest process to do.

But Lebanon has social dynamics different from the US or GB,or even France.(Much closer to the Suiss model actually).

It is not necessarily better to have the same process as some others,even if they are the best of the democracies.Actually,each society should find the way that suits it best...Whatever that could be.

But by my point,i was aiming for better results and goals,than merely ensuring the simple right to vote.

I think that the right to be accurately and fairly represented is more important than the right to vote,in itself.

And in a country asking for proportional/more accurate representation and/or for small districts to ensure a closer contact between the voter and the candidate,one can imagine that sooner or later,expats will not feel represented as they should be,or at least,they will ask for more specific representation.A "proximity representation".

I know that you are an expat Mirka,but you are also an active political cadre in a specific political Party.

So you could maybe not see/feel,a big difference in the electoral outcome,whether expats make the Party win a seat,as "FPM Jounieh" (I hear someone objecting...hehe) or as "US expat representative-FPM "...A seat is a seat after all.

But to them,there is a difference.A very big difference.

Tayyeb let's just take it from a pure practical realistic angle:

For example, as an ex-expat myself,non politically interested or affiliated,I can assure you that Lebanese politics was the least of my concerns.I was rather immersed and interested in the political life of my country of residence.

Not because i didn't have the right to vote.But because I couldn't feel myself belonging to the Lebanese political assembly and system as a whole.

It's might be a simple feeling...I know...But it makes the whole difference.

Now,on the other hand,

If i had the right to vote for someone who was to represent,me (as a specific expat),my condition,my state of mind,my goals and my visions,someone who i could be in touch with,someone whom i know well enough,and have this someone be my "special envoyee" to the Lebanese assembly...I would then probably,always feel that i have a special tie with Lebanon...Since there is a place there,reserved specifically to me.

Otherwise,my vote will become more and more casual...And soon enough...I would probably be too lazy to go and cast my voice.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Fair enough.

But it's not that i'm just asking for "enticement".What i'm saying is that close accurate and specific representation, could have positive effects on "enticement".

And the opposite could have negative effects,not to mention that sooner or later,it will also affect the whole process.

In both ways you're giving people the right to vote...there is no doubt about that.

But i seek the best representation...And i'm just citing the "enticement" issue,as one of the benefits of more accurate and proximate representation.

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

PS:Just as reminder,i'm specifically talking in my latest posts about the expats that have been permanently residing outside Lebanon for a long time...Those ones IMHO need a better and more accurate and specific representation,and i think that sooner or later,they will ask for it....But others can simply vote like Lebanese residents and follow the usual process.

It's even weird that this process of voting in embassies is still not implemented.There is no convincing arguments to justify not doing it yet.

I know your intentions are noble in trying to provide expatriates with better and specific representation. However, the issue is much more complicated and it has to do with rights, sovereignty, practicality, and a slew of other things.

From the stand point of practicality, how would you distribute the seats among the countries? Will there be seats for the Americas, for the Africas, for Oceania, etc. ?

How would electing someone like me living in the USA as the MP for the Americas serve a Lebanese in southern Argentina? How would he feel more closely represented? Heck, I am farther away from him than an MP from Lebanon. I know less about him and he knows less about me than an MP living in Lebanon knows about the two of us.

As an MP for the Americas, where should I live to stay close to my constituency? In the US, Argentina or Lebanon? If I live in the US or Argentina, how do I participate in the parliamentary life and process from there? And if I move to Lebanon, would I still be close to my constituency?

In reality, the only thing I have in common with a Lebanese in Argentina, is our shared interests in Lebanon. And the only person who can represent us both is someone in common between the 2 of us: an MP from Lebanon.

From the stand point of rights, the Lebanese-American communities don't need a Lebanese MP to protect their rights in the USA... they have American Representatives, Senators and laws doing that... they need an MP protecting their rights in Lebanon. They don't need an MP asking for schools in the US for their chidren... there is someone doing that already... they need an MP asking for schools in Lebanon... we don't uninterrupted electricity in the US; we already have it... we need it in Lebanon.

From the stand point of sovereignty, will a Lebanese MP in the US legislate Lebanese laws to organize the lives of the Lebanese living in the USA? keef hey? How does this play with the simple principle of sovereignty of the USA over its territory and its inhabitants? The lives of Lebanese living in the US are already organized in the US according to American laws.

Listen, we all get a bit too proud and emotional and want to re-associate anyone with a thin Lebanese lineage back to Lebanon... like Shakespeare whose real name was Sheikh Isber :)

I have third cousins who make better Tabbouleh than I do... but let's face it, they don't have and never had any interests in Lebanon and they are not Lebanese citizens... thus they have no rights under Lebanese laws and the Lebanese State has no obligations to them. I wouldn't want them voting and affecting the lives of Lebanese, one way or the other.

On the other hand, I have a sister who is a Lebanese citizen and she was forced by Lebanon's conflicts to live outside.

Let's look at the issue in its simplest form. This sister has interests in Lebanon and, according to Lebanese laws, her name appears as an eligible voter. It's just impractical for her (and impossible for others) to travel to Lebanon to vote each time there is an election. So how can she voice her opinion to protect her rights and interests in Lebanon and maybe undo some of the injustice to which she has been subjected?

It is the duty and job of the Lebanese State to make it reasonably practical for her to perform her right and duty to vote. Let's not look into the issue further than that.

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[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by Garabet B

i really really believe that the ones asking for this law to pass will be surprised by the outcome and it will be the opposit of their speculations .

Yep, definitely. The vast majority of the Lebanese abroad are not what we want them to be. Civil war mentality.

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by Amirkani

From the stand point of practicality, how would you distribute the seats among the countries? Will there be seats for the Americas, for the Africas, for Oceania, etc. ?

I have my little idea...I didn't elaborate too much on it yet...but it is feasible and very practical,realistic and does provide a fairly accurate representation btw...But i'm not sure that i can expose it yet,or even discuss it in a comprehensive way here,especially due to my limited skills in writing...But we'll eventually discuss it later i guess...

Btw...France has a system for DOM and TOM (Departements d'outre-mer et Territoires d'outre-mer).

I could suggest,among many alternatives, something similar (not the same..only similar)

Originally Posted by Amirkani

From the stand point of rights, the Lebanese-American communities don't need a Lebanese MP to protect their rights in the USA... they have American Representatives, Senators and laws doing that... they need an MP protecting their rights in Lebanon. They don't need an MP asking for schools in the US for their chidren... there is someone doing that already... they need an MP asking for schools in Lebanon... we don't uninterrupted electricity in the US; we already have it... we need it in Lebanon.

That's absolutely sure.Of course.But this is not at all what i suggested.

What i was saying is that, Lebanese-expats communities need a Lebanese MP to protect their Lebanese rights,in Lebanon.

But they also need someone who represent their sensitivities and their own micro-society,with all the specificity that it requires and or represents.(Compare them to any other electoral district...nothing more)

A community living in America has sensitivities and requirements different than another one living in Australia,or another one living in Africa,or another one living in South-America....

At the end of the day,they will all tell you:

"Of course that we want to have the right to vote.It's because we want to take part of the present and future of the country,and in the decision making process.

But mostly,it's also because we need someone to represent our specific voice and colour in Lebanon.Someone who specifically speak in our name in the Lebanese parliament."

You see...There are 2 variables here.And in my opinion,both are required for a better representation.

Originally Posted by Amirkani

From the stand point of sovereignty, will a Lebanese MP in the US legislate Lebanese laws to organize the lives of the Lebanese living in the USA? keef hey? How does this play with the simple principle of sovereignty of the USA over its territory and its inhabitants? The lives of Lebanese living in the US are already organized in the US according to American laws.

A Lebanese MP elected to represent a specific TOM,will have his seat in the Lebanese chamber,and will have to represent his voters there.His powers and prerogatives are limited to his mandate in Lebanon and inside the Lebanese territory.

There is no sovereignty issue here.

Originally Posted by Amirkani

But let's face it, they don't have and never had any interests in Lebanon and they are not Lebanese citizens... thus they have no rights under Lebanese laws and the Lebanese State has no obligations to them. I wouldn't want them voting and affecting the lives of Lebanese, one way or the other.

Ok,but that's another subject that i didn't talk about yet.

I'm only talking about those who have the right to vote.I didn't specify yet who do i think should have that right and who shouldn't.

And i definitely wouldn't suggest that everyone who has a thin tie to Lebanon,should be entitled to vote...

Originally Posted by Amirkani

On the other hand, I have a sister who is a Lebanese citizen and she was forced by Lebanon's conflicts to live outside.

Let's look at the issue in its simplest form. This sister has interests in Lebanon and, according to Lebanese laws, her name appears as an eligible voter. It's just impractical for her (and impossible for others) to travel to Lebanon to vote each time there is an election. So how can she voice her opinion to protect her rights and interests in Lebanon and maybe undo some of the injustice to which she has been subjected?

It is the duty and job of the Lebanese State to make it reasonably practical for her to perform her right and duty to vote. Let's not look into the issue further than that.

I agree...But did i say the opposite at the first place?

[GeaGea SkyWalkeR]

If this happens Aoun and hasoona will be crushed. Not many people like hezb outside lebanon.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by GeaGea SkyWalkeR

I this happens Aoun and hasoona will be crushed. Not many people like hezb outside lebanon.

So u did ur own survey, wala 7akeh 3al fadeh

[GeaGea SkyWalkeR]

Originally Posted by Venom

So u did ur own survey, wala 7akeh 3al fadeh

In sydney its obvious, most the Christians are hardcore LF. And its a very large community. There are not many jihadi ,death to America lebanese outside lebanon.

[Venom]

Originally Posted by GeaGea SkyWalkeR

In sydney its obvious, most the Christians are hardcore LF. And its a very large community. There are not many jihadi ,death to America lebanese outside lebanon.

So u based it on Sydney and on the people that u know?!!

Here is something from Australia!

Sydney, Australia: Ualm Annual Bbq Success.