June 2009 elections, the next day, your comments!

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by SISCO

I think if the LF/Kataeb win or the FPM wins, i 'll be very angry because i 'll be putting a white paper !!!!!!
I never vote [...] parties (I did once a mistake in 2005 because i had hope).

Anyway good luck to every one, in both cases may god help Lebanon !!!

Where do you vote?

[SISCO]

Originally Posted by dodzi

Where do you vote?

I vote in Metn !!!!

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by SISCO

I vote in Metn !!!!

Vote for a third party candidate, independents...

[Shuyu3i]

Each person should vote. This is his democratic duty. Whoever does not vote should not yell and shout later on when nothing changes.

[Red Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dodzi

Vote for a third party candidate, independents...

u mean vote for murr ? hehe

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by Red Phoenix

u mean vote for murr ? hehe

lol actually, in Matn, Murr's the first party candidate. Second party candidates are FPMers and 14 March candidates.

By third party candidates I mean candidates who aren't affiliated with the two major currents. Like that Hashash dude in Baabda, or the third candidates in Matn and Beirut 2007!

[chafic]

Originally Posted by Youchka

That is in your opinion, in mine, they are worse, Salafis cut throats and kill civilians in cold blood, which we did not see from HA neither in Beirut or anywhere else. Please do not discuss this issue with me, it won't go anywhere, those extremists khalifet el Quaeda are no match to anyone when it comes to brutality and inhumanity.

I'm not discussing Hezbollah here, in my opinion they are just another extremist organization. But I was actually talking about you labeling LFers for example (or maybe even FMers and other opponents) with different sorts of names. By your high ethical standards, is that worth an apology, or not?

Originally Posted by Youchka

I don't know if there was intimidation or not and I don't care, because obviously people did not give in to it since WE THE OPPONENTS OF HA BACK THEN GOT THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTES IN OUR AREAS.

That's quite an irrelevant argument; Added to the fact that FPM's win is not directly linked to the existence of intimidation, Hezbollah could have used intimidation in other areas.

Originally Posted by Youchka

And what does being allies to HA now have anything to do with our credibility to what happened in 2005, it is not an opinion I am giving you, it is facts, we did win the majority of the votes whether there was intimidation or not.

Who talked about you winning? I'm just saying that FPM isn't credible in a discussion about whether Hezbollah used or could use intimidation or not.

Originally Posted by Youchka

Let the others get intimidated the way people were in 2005 and give their votes to HA opponents, what are you still discussing here?

What about other areas where Hezbollah won? It could have been intimidation. Besides, I talked about the other effect the weapons have, which are not limited to direct intimidation.

Originally Posted by Youchka

I do not like to discuss with someone who bases all his arguments on "could be", "could very much do this", "could very much do that". Yes walla geagea and his thugs could also go down to the streets and terrorize people who do not vote for them, they have weapons too. I do not go by the "could" thing, the sky could fall on our heads any minute.

Wrong. There are matter of context and precedence to be considered. The Lebanese Forces do not have a trained militia like Hezbollah or Amal do (1). The Lebanese Forces did not deploy any fighters and militia men in the streets of Beirut and other places in Lebanon like Hezbollah, Amal and SSNP did (2). The two cannot thus be compared.
Therefore all questions could be asked about any armed group going to elections, and I would by default assume the worse.

Originally Posted by Youchka

All what you are accusing HA of, can work both ways. When you mentioned May 7 issue, the opposition fought in Beirut with individual weapons, not rockets, and those weapons, all parties have them in quantities including PSP, LF, FM, without forgetting the dear old Salafis, therefore any threat that you accuse HA of, can be also implied to the others.

Wrong again, you're not succeeding at being apologetic for outlawry. Regardless of the weapons used, Hezbollah is properly a militia with trained fighter, logistics, communications networks....They cannot even be compared to any others.

Originally Posted by Youchka

In 2005, there was GREAT intimidation done against us in the North, and it was not done by HA that I can assure you, and we still went for the elections.

Proofs?

Originally Posted by Youchka

So if you are trying to find excuses for the others' loud failure in 2009 don't, if you think they will be people's choice, no need for this whole discussion, last time, despite HA weapons and HA "could be" intimidation, people chose who they wanted.

I don't know what would be the results in 2009; People in 2009 voted for change and reform; Would they vote for militias in 2009? That's still to see, but they could do so.

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by chafic

I'm not discussing Hezbollah here, in my opinion they are just another extremist organization. But I was actually talking about you labeling LFers for example (or maybe even FMers and other opponents) with different sorts of names. By your high ethical standards, is that worth an apology, or not?

If people vote for them, of course. I said it in the very beginning of this discussion, no need to repeat it. It means that people do not consider them idiots, the people talk.

That's quite an irrelevant argument; Added to the fact that FPM's win is not directly linked to the existence of intimidation, Hezbollah could have used intimidation in other areas.

Proof.

Who talked about you winning? I'm just saying that FPM isn't credible in a discussion about whether Hezbollah used or could use intimidation or not.



What about other areas where Hezbollah won? It could have been intimidation. Besides, I talked about the other effect the weapons have, which are not limited to direct intimidation.

This discussion is becoming redundant, too many could be could do could not.

Wrong. There are matter of context and precedence to be considered. The Lebanese Forces do not have a trained militia like Hezbollah or Amal do (1). The Lebanese Forces did not deploy any fighters and militia men in the streets of Beirut and other places in Lebanon like Hezbollah, Amal and SSNP did (2). The two cannot thus be compared.
Therefore all questions could be asked about any armed group going to elections, and I would by default assume the worse.

Wrong. LF has thugs who can shoot at people and break cars and do much more. Doing trouble and intimidating people does not need training nor an organized militia. Have you had some bully at school who used to torture kids and intimidate them the way you see them in movies? Any thug can intimidate his neighborhood.
Also, the Salafis are very well equipped to intimidate the whole country, not just the North. So those too are to be considered. But for some reason, you seeem to consider everyone "dahha" when compared to HA.

Wrong again, you're not succeeding at being apologetic for outlawry. Regardless of the weapons used, Hezbollah is properly a militia with trained fighter, logistics, communications networks....They cannot even be compared to any others.

Wrong again yourself. The weapons used, whether you consider it outlawry or not were the same ones used by the others, owned by others and sticked by others. So can be very well compared, we are not talking here about a full fledged war against half of the world's armed forces, we are talking about intimidating locals which can be done with a small fared may.

Proofs?

When you get me proofs about the intimidation during elections that HA did, and when you get me proofs about the intimidation that HA MIGHT do in 2009, I will bother finding you proofs for anything.

I don't know what would be the results in 2009; People in 2009 voted for change and reform; Would they vote for militias in 2009? That's still to see, but they could do so.

Obvisouly they are bound to vote to militias since FM have now their own Salafis militia and HA is according to you a militia.