June 2009 elections, the next day, your comments!

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by chafic

How are after-elections reactions related to doing harm and apologizing?

I did not know that the issue is so complicated so it needs so much explaining. When I treat you of a loser day in day out and you win, don't you at least owe me an apology? Or maybe in your own dictionary, it does not count?

Ah, I thought you were rather asking people on the forum. Shaoul, Khashan and Young would probably be ranting; Opponents of FPM should be preparing to be an effective democratic opposition, something FPM failed in doing. But actually, the whole democratic procedure seems pretty flawed as long as one side, Hezbollah, an ally of FPM, carries weapons. What do you think?

Yes them too.
FPM was not an effective democratic opposition? Walla the way I remember it, FPM VERY DEMOCRATICALLY presented its tou3oun to the mejliss doustouri, now when the rulers want to abolish the institution that will allow you to have your democratic complaint reviewed at, then no one can actually blame us for anything we did. When one breaks the thread, all perls will start falling, you do not blame the pearls.
As for HA carrying weapons, I did not see it as a problem in 2005, did you? Anyways, I do not see how the weapons will affect the elections, I mean in HA areas they have the majority anyways and do not need their weapons to pressure anyone, nor do I see them coming to Beit Chabeb and Zahle and putting their guns in people's heads to vote FPM.

Now this is all out of topic, if you like to discuss HA's weapons effect on elections, please open another thread.

[chafic]

Originally Posted by Youchka

I did not know that the issue is so complicated so it needs so much explaining. When I treat you of a loser day in day out and you win, don't you at least owe me an apology? Or maybe in your own dictionary, it does not count?

Apology? That's extremely laughable. Political opponents in Lebanon use all sorts of dirt against each others, and then you expect in the end the one who lost the elections to apologize for the winner, for the simple fact, that he won (i.e. regardless of all unethical behavior from both sides, as if the win absolves the winner).

Originally Posted by Youchka

Yes them too.
FPM was not an effective democratic opposition? Walla the way I remember it, FPM VERY DEMOCRATICALLY presented its tou3oun to the mejliss doustouri, now when the rulers want to abolish the institution that will allow you to have your democratic complaint reviewed at, then no one can actually blame us for anything we did. When one breaks the thread, all perls will start falling, you do not blame the pearls.

Yes, it makes so much sense. The irony is that FPM was keen on remaining democratic even after the tou3oun story (as clearly announced by Aoun after the formation of the government from which he was excluded), until it realized it can bear turning into an undemocratic opposition, having militias on its side.

Originally Posted by Youchka

As for HA carrying weapons, I did not see it as a problem in 2005, did you? Anyways, I do not see how the weapons will affect the elections, I mean in HA areas they have the majority anyways and do not need their weapons to pressure anyone, nor do I see them coming to Beit Chabeb and Zahle and putting their guns in people's heads to vote FPM.

Yes, it was a problem in 2005, and will be a problem in 2009. Maybe quite a few people would be intimidated by the weapons; Maybe many others would be attracted by these weapons (in terms of affinity to the powerful). It could have quite an important effect.

Originally Posted by Youchka

Now this is all out of topic, if you like to discuss HA's weapons effect on elections, please open another thread.

No, I'm not actually talking about the weapons per se, but about how they play a role in the post-elections reactions; In other words, many could be contesting the results under the pretext (or justification) of weapons.

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by chafic

Apology? That's extremely laughable. Political opponents in Lebanon use all sorts of dirt against each others, and then you expect in the end the one who lost the elections to apologize for the winner, for the simple fact, that he won (i.e. regardless of all unethical behavior from both sides, as if the win absolves the winner).

Well between people who know each other, like I dunno you and I here, I expect human relations, politics is part of that. In Lebanon it went beyond anything that is human or ethical, maybe you got used to that.

Yes, it makes so much sense. The irony is that FPM was keen on remaining democratic even after the tou3oun story (as clearly announced by Aoun after the formation of the government from which he was excluded), until it realized it can bear turning into an undemocratic opposition, having militias on its side.

It doesn't matter when did FP decide to do what. When someone starts undoing democracy, do not blame who comes after it and what they do.

Yes, it was a problem in 2005, and will be a problem in 2009. Maybe quite a few people would be intimidated by the weapons; Maybe many others would be attracted by these weapons (in terms of affinity to the powerful). It could have quite an important effect.

Well the same way we entered the elections while HA weapons were there and our people were not intimidated by it a bit and the proof is that we got the majority of the votes, let them and their people show how unintimidated they are by those weapons.

No, I'm not actually talking about the weapons per se, but about how they play a role in the post-elections reactions; In other words, many could be contesting the results under the pretext (or justification) of weapons.

Well there should be a majliss doustouri by then, if they have anything to contest they can present it to it. When we contested to the majliss doustouri, none of our claims were based on HA weapons. Now the weapons were not a problem in doing a unity government with HA, then they can't be a problem in doing elections with it. If they would later like to contest they can contest as much as they like. They can use any reason to blame their failure to, it won't change matters much. We will not abolish the majliss doustouri as they did.

[chafic]

Originally Posted by Youchka

Well between people who know each other, like I dunno you and I here, I expect human relations, politics is part of that. In Lebanon it went beyond anything that is human or ethical, maybe you got used to that.

So an FPMer should apologize to an LFer saying "Sorry, I didn't expect your party to win elections"? Or vice versa?

Originally Posted by Youchka

It doesn't matter when did FP decide to do what. When someone starts undoing democracy, do not blame who comes after it and what they do.

I was just giving a proof of how the "undoing democracy" argument is empty.

Originally Posted by Youchka

Well the same way we entered the elections while HA weapons were there and our people were not intimidated by it a bit and the proof is that we got the majority of the votes, let them and their people show how unintimidated they are by those weapons.

Who knows, you could be covering for Hezbollah; Or even more, Hezbollah could start intimidation this elections; Or well, people might be too afraid to talk about it.....See, too many options here.

Originally Posted by Youchka

Well there should be a majliss doustouri by then, if they have anything to contest they can present it to it. When we contested to the majliss doustouri, none of our claims were based on HA weapons. Now the weapons were not a problem in doing a unity government with HA, then they can't be a problem in doing elections with it. If they would later like to contest they can contest as much as they like. They can use any reason to blame their failure to, it won't change matters much. We will not abolish the majliss doustouri as they did.

The constitutional council issue is more complicated than you portray it; I already discussed it many times.
On the other hand, how could anyone be sure, if any constitutional council was appointed, that it wouldn't be intimidated once again by Hezbollah. They probably wouldn't dare creating another May 7. See, too many options here too. The "unfairness of weapons" argument is always valid.

[SeekNirvana]

Originally Posted by Youchka

The 2009 elections will result in a winner and a loser. Now considering that no cheating happens that would result in tou3oun as we had last time, and results are final.

The important part we're missing here is that if A wins, then B will automatically doubt the results. It doesn't matter if the judicial system confirms it neither, judges can be corrupt and we can take this all the way to neverland.

If FPM lost the elections, I personally will not be happy, of course, but I will accept the result and I will understand that people do not want us, we have done things that people wether did not understand or did not approve. I will admit that the LF and Kataeb are what people want. I will no longer work in politics, and will leave the space to the ones who people chose.

The choice is not necessarily between you and Kataeb or LF. There are other puppets on stage, and there are some actual players that matter. Don't take it too personally if you lose. It wouldn't necessarily mean that people prefer Kataeb/LF. The current equation at the moment is along two major axes of Lebanese dogma: sectarianism and leader adoration. Those will determine whether FPM will make it in the Christian areas. Mind you, chances are still in your favor in the overall picture.

if your opponent wins, what would be your reaction, what would you do and most importantly, what would you say to your opponent the next day?

Since most likely, very few of those who I support would make it to parliament, I would have to come back to the forums / blogs and rant about Lebanese politics. By then, we would have new juicier subjects that I can waste my time on, while still debating the parallelism of resistance and state in addition to other exciting subjects.

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by chafic

So an FPMer should apologize to an LFer saying "Sorry, I didn't expect your party to win elections"? Or vice versa?

I personally will.

I was just giving a proof of how the "undoing democracy" argument is empty.

If I remember well, you started the "undemocratic means" thingy, therefore it can be empty both ways.

Who knows, you could be covering for Hezbollah; Or even more, Hezbollah could start intimidation this elections; Or well, people might be too afraid to talk about it.....See, too many options here.

Hum, by the same token, I could also be scared of the Salafis weapons who seem too many, I mean those people swore allegiance to saad, EN DIRECT ON TV, bi doun kfouf, therefore, they might also intimidate people, and all North people and bekaa people could be scare of voting. Chou rakyak that we hold no elections and expand the life of this perfect parliament, wouldn't that avoid so much "intimidation"?
But again, you are not answering what I am writing you, I told you we were not intimidated by HA and its allies back then, why should they? Are they weaker? Or maybe they give in too easy to the "ekrah and ighra' that they so often apologize by?

The constitutional council issue is more complicated than you portray it; I already discussed it many times.
On the other hand, how could anyone be sure, if any constitutional council was appointed, that it wouldn't be intimidated once again by Hezbollah. They probably wouldn't dare creating another May 7. See, too many options here too. The "unfairness of weapons" argument is always valid.

Yih then how come you are askign us in another thread to go to the court to decide on matters? What if the court and judiciary system is also intimidated by HA? Ya amma when it is convenient for your nonstop rambling, you revert to the court and institutions, and when it's not, you excuse yourself with the "HA intimidation" rhetoric?

[chafic]

Originally Posted by Youchka

I personally will.

Good, it would be good by these high ethical standards of yours, to apologize to people you describe as lowlifes, thugs and stupid too. Congratulating the winner, or apologizing to him\her is not a very laudable veneration of power.

Originally Posted by Youchka

If I remember well, you started the "undemocratic means" thingy, therefore it can be empty both ways.

What do you mean? My argument is a different one.

Originally Posted by Youchka

Hum, by the same token, I could also be scared of the Salafis weapons who seem too many, I mean those people swore allegiance to saad, EN DIRECT ON TV, bi doun kfouf, therefore, they might also intimidate people, and all North people and bekaa people could be scare of voting. Chou rakyak that we hold no elections and expand the life of this perfect parliament, wouldn't that avoid so much "intimidation"?

Of course, armed Salafis are another threat. But on scale, they couldn't even be compared to Hezbollah.

Originally Posted by Youchka

But again, you are not answering what I am writing you, I told you we were not intimidated by HA and its allies back then, why should they? Are they weaker? Or maybe they give in too easy to the "ekrah and ighra' that they so often apologize by?

Why is anyone supposed to believe there was no intimidation in 2005; FPM is a political ally of Hezbollah and is not credible today as to whether there were intimidation in 2005 or not. In any case, they could have changed policy, as simple as that. In 2005 they didn't invade Beirut, in 2008 they did, to "put the train on the right track".

Originally Posted by Youchka

Yih then how come you are askign us in another thread to go to the court to decide on matters? What if the court and judiciary system is also intimidated by HA? Ya amma when it is convenient for your nonstop rambling, you revert to the court and institutions, and when it's not, you excuse yourself with the "HA intimidation" rhetoric?

Who said that in the other case, there wouldn't be intimidation by Hezbollah, but it's simply worth a try. They wouldn't probably stretch muscles too much for a little piece of land but could very much do so for general elections.

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by chafic

Of course, armed Salafis are another threat. But on scale, they couldn't even be compared to Hezbollah.

That is in your opinion, in mine, they are worse, Salafis cut throats and kill civilians in cold blood, which we did not see from HA neither in Beirut or anywhere else. Please do not discuss this issue with me, it won't go anywhere, those extremists khalifet el Quaeda are no match to anyone when it comes to brutality and inhumanity.

Why is anyone supposed to believe there was no intimidation in 2005; FPM is a political ally of Hezbollah and is not credible today as to whether there were intimidation in 2005 or not. In any case, they could have changed policy, as simple as that. In 2005 they didn't invade Beirut, in 2008 they did, to "put the train on the right track".

I don't know if there was intimidation or not and I don't care, because obviously people did not give in to it since WE THE OPPONENTS OF HA BACK THEN GOT THE MAJORITY OF THE VOTES IN OUR AREAS. And what does being allies to HA now have anything to do with our credibility to what happened in 2005, it is not an opinion I am giving you, it is facts, we did win the majority of the votes whether there was intimidation or not. Let the others get intimidated the way people were in 2005 and give their votes to HA opponents, what are you still discussing here?

Who said that in the other case, there wouldn't be intimidation by Hezbollah, but it's simply worth a try. They wouldn't probably stretch muscles too much for a little piece of land but could very much do so for general elections.

I do not like to discuss with someone who bases all his arguments on "could be", "could very much do this", "could very much do that". Yes walla geagea and his thugs could also go down to the streets and terrorize people who do not vote for them, they have weapons too. I do not go by the "could" thing, the sky could fall on our heads any minute.

All what you are accusing HA of, can work both ways. When you mentioned May 7 issue, the opposition fought in Beirut with individual weapons, not rockets, and those weapons, all parties have them in quantities including PSP, LF, FM, without forgetting the dear old Salafis, therefore any threat that you accuse HA of, can be also implied to the others. In 2005, there was GREAT intimidation done against us in the North, and it was not done by HA that I can assure you, and we still went for the elections. So if you are trying to find excuses for the others' loud failure in 2009 don't, if you think they will be people's choice, no need for this whole discussion, last time, despite HA weapons and HA "could be" intimidation, people chose who they wanted.

[SISCO]

I think if the LF/Kataeb win or the FPM wins, i 'll be very angry because i 'll be putting a white paper !!!!!!
I never vote [...] parties (I did once a mistake in 2005 because i had hope).

Anyway good luck to every one, in both cases may god help Lebanon !!!

[Youchka]

Originally Posted by SeekNirvana

The important part we're missing here is that if A wins, then B will automatically doubt the results. It doesn't matter if the judicial system confirms it neither, judges can be corrupt and we can take this all the way to neverland.

Maybe, however, when you have a judicial system, at least you would say we have a marja3iyeh.
If we had a majliss doustouri when we contested, and if it ruled against us, we wouldn't have had the argument of "lack of constitutional council" for 3 years.

The choice is not necessarily between you and Kataeb or LF. There are other puppets on stage, and there are some actual players that matter. Don't take it too personally if you lose. It wouldn't necessarily mean that people prefer Kataeb/LF. The current equation at the moment is along two major axes of Lebanese dogma: sectarianism and leader adoration. Those will determine whether FPM will make it in the Christian areas. Mind you, chances are still in your favor in the overall picture.

I will not reply to you implying that we are puppets, nor that we do not matter. If you think that we are so small and valueless, I would wonder why there are billions of dollars spent around the world to break US, not HA, US.
As for your leader adoration mention, I adore GMA, I have no problem saying it, I adore him for many reasons that I do not want to throw here, but one of the most important things I adore him for is that eh made me love my country, something that no one else has done before or after him.

Since most likely, very few of those who I support would make it to parliament, I would have to come back to the forums / blogs and rant about Lebanese politics. By then, we would have new juicier subjects that I can waste my time on, while still debating the parallelism of resistance and state in addition to other exciting subjects.

I am sorry that who you want would not make it to parliament, some day maybe they will. We have waited for 18 years to be in the government, and we definitely will not be there forever, no one is here forever.