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  (#71 (permalink)) Old
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Default 19th June 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli View Post
I do not know. All I know is that Palestinians are not trying to get it what ever it may finally become.
They are not trying to get a rotten deal, you are right.
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Default 19th June 2008

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Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli View Post
What are you doing in Canada? Shouldn't you lead by example and go back to Lebanon where you really belong?

Thanks.

proIsrael-nonIsraeli

What a stupid statement, there is a difference between leaving your country on your own to do whatever you want and being forced out of your country and turned into a refugee.

The fact that we believe Palestinian refugees have a right to go back to their land doesn't mean we cannot travel, work, or live in other countries.
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Default 19th June 2008

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Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli View Post
If you will try to think about it long enough you will realize that you do not have that many options regardless whether you are concerned or not. That is if you care about Lebanon.
So Pro Non Israel,

What horse in this race you have? and what harm have you sustained from this regional conflict for you to take such pointed positions. Obviously you didn't lose property or loved ones to care , but you still have such strong opinions and become a cheerleader of Israel no matter it's bad behavior and expasionist policy against international law.

Sounds to me like you're nothin but a cheerleader because you were ingrained into it, then logic and historical facts don't matter.

You should read more unbiased historical books about this region & conflict before you call yourself Pro or Non, ok sunny.
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Default 19th June 2008

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Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli View Post
OK. I agree to wait for 20 years. As to you PPNP question, it will depend on the country itself. At the moment I do not believe I will but you know me, I never say never.
Meanwhile,and while we're all waiting for that time to come,i'm still curious to know your opinion about the massive Israeli calls for transfering "Israeli Arabs" out of Israel.

Do you,like the Israelis, consider it as the only solution to have a Jewish state?

Are you with or against Israel in emplementing such policies and plans?
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Default 20th June 2008

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Originally Posted by LebaneseARAB View Post
Israeli Arabs are Palestinians. Who do you think you are to tell people who they are?

You are right Gaza and WB are not Israel but Israel is Palestine which means Gaza and WB.
Spare me this BS, would you. Those who want to be Palestinians have opportunity to become and quickly and easily.


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Originally Posted by LebaneseARAB
What a stupid statement, there is a difference between leaving your country on your own to do whatever you want and being forced out of your country and turned into a refugee.
Yes, there is. So, must I assume those who left Lebanon on their own are not Lebanese and never belonged there?


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Originally Posted by LebaneseARAB
The fact that we believe Palestinian refugees have a right to go back to their land doesn't mean we cannot travel, work, or live in other countries.
No, you have right to think what ever you want and go anywhere you are welcomed.
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Default 20th June 2008

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Originally Posted by Tarboush View Post
So Pro Non Israel,

What horse in this race you have? and what harm have you sustained from this regional conflict for you to take such pointed positions. Obviously you didn't lose property or loved ones to care , but you still have such strong opinions and become a cheerleader of Israel no matter it's bad behavior and expasionist policy against international law.

Sounds to me like you're nothin but a cheerleader because you were ingrained into it, then logic and historical facts don't matter.

You should read more unbiased historical books about this region & conflict before you call yourself Pro or Non, ok sunny.

"So Pro Non Israel,"

Do not be cheap. Either do it right or do not do it at all.
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Default 20th June 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abou Sandal View Post
Meanwhile,and while we're all waiting for that time to come,i'm still curious to know your opinion about the massive Israeli calls for transfering "Israeli Arabs" out of Israel.
I am not familiar with this. Is this official position and if so what is it exactly? I'd appreciate the source I could review.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Abou Sandal View Post
Do you,like the Israelis, consider it as the only solution to have a Jewish state?

Are you with or against Israel in emplementing such policies and plans?
Like I said above I need to see it first.
Judging by the name of this thread and assuming Israelis are the worst kind I still do not see how it could be physically and more importantly politically possible for Israel to survive such move even if successful at first.

There is a way however. Israel has to become a victim in the eyes of the rest of the world. Only then ...

Do not read too much into it. Remember, I am just speculating.
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Default 20th June 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli View Post
I am not familiar with this. Is this official position and if so what is it exactly? I'd appreciate the source I could review.

Like I said above I need to see it first.
Judging by the name of this thread and assuming Israelis are the worst kind I still do not see how it could be physically and more importantly politically possible for Israel to survive such move even if successful at first.

There is a way however. Israel has to become a victim in the eyes of the rest of the world. Only then ...

Do not read too much into it. Remember, I am just speculating.
Here are official statements:

Israel will try to transfer over a million more Palestinian into Lebanon


Here is a little article made by a serious source:

Israel will try to transfer over a million more Palestinian into Lebanon


Here is a very well conducted report of a study,documented by Israeli official sources and statements.(And there is also a public poll)

Israel will try to transfer over a million more Palestinian into Lebanon


Please,do not take it like i'm trying to show off or score some points here.Read very well those references.They are really worth reading if you really aren't familiar with the subject,like you said.You can also ask friends for confirmation,or google about the issue.It's not a secret anymore that Israelis are looking for a way to transfer "Israeli Arabs"
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Default 20th June 2008

Abou Sandal, i thought you might find this article interesting, it was an op-ed piece in yesterdays New York Times and it mentions briefly the possible expulsion of Palestinians into Lebanon.

June 18, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
A Fair Fight for Lebanon’s Army
By NICHOLAS NOE
Beirut

IN the wake of a narrowly averted civil war here last month, the United States now has a unique opportunity to help build something that all the parties to the conflict have said they very much want: a strong Lebanese Armed Forces.

Unfortunately, even though the Bush administration has provided more than $300 million in tactical aid to Lebanon since the Syrian withdrawal of 2005, it still apparently refuses to provide the kind of strategic weapons — guided rockets, tanks, modern artillery and intelligence-gathering equipment — that are desperately needed in this task. During her visit to Beirut this week, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice didn’t even mention the issue.

The reason for this, American and Lebanese officials say privately, is a longstanding prohibition against supplying Lebanese forces with advanced equipment that could be used against Israel.

This “red line” remains even though Hezbollah has far more dangerous weaponry, and despite Washington’s commitment to build up the authority of the state. It is a testament to how short-sighted and contradictory the American approach to Lebanon has been.

Indeed, last month in Beirut, the army was left without the equipment that would have enabled it to be a more forceful mediator in the street battles involving Hezbollah and its rivals.

The lack of equipment also contributed to the military’s inability last summer to quickly roust a group of Islamist militants from a Palestinian refugee camp in northern Lebanon. Late in that conflict, the United Arab Emirates donated advanced Gazelle helicopters to Lebanon, but Washington required all advanced rocketry to be removed before shipment. As a result, soldiers were forced to drop shells from the helicopters by hand, destroying much of the camp, when they might have been able to pinpoint the Islamist fighters.

Moreover, when Russia stepped in to offer the Lebanese military essentially anything it wanted, free of charge, according to one former military official involved in the discussions, the Bush administration prohibited the Lebanese government from accepting the offer.

Thankfully, the United States now has an opportunity to right some of the wrongs of the past, and in the process help draw a peaceful roadmap for Hezbollah’s eventual normalization.

The violence in Beirut seems to have reduced support for Hezbollah among some Lebanese, as well as demonstrated just how much the group needs the Lebanese Armed Forces. In fact, without the military, Hezbollah would have been left with the unsavory option of pursuing a Hamas-style takeover of Lebanon in full, something it clearly did not want.

In the end, the presence of the armed forces afforded Hezbollah and its rivals a way to quickly withdraw, clearing the way for negotiations that led to the installation of a president and should shortly lead to a new national unity government.

Hezbollah’s reduced popularity and its reliance on the army set an ideal foundation for the most important task facing the new government: creating a credible defense plan. Give the Lebanese an army able to meet the perceived threats emanating from Israel (primarily involving water, territory and a possible future expulsion of Palestinians to Lebanon), and then, Hezbollah has said, its independent weaponry can be tackled.

Encouraging this dynamic should be at the top of the American agenda in Lebanon, especially since the two primary disputes between Hezbollah and Israel (the status of Shebaa Farms and a prisoner exchange) appear on the verge of a resolution — thus further undercutting Hezbollah’s rationale for bearing arms.

This necessarily means accepting a strong force arrayed defensively against Israel. But ultimately the United States would do far better for Lebanon and its own interests by allowing the country’s military to get what it needs, rather than leaving the field open to Hezbollah.

Nicholas Noe is the editor in chief of Mideastwire.com and the editor of “Voice of Hezbollah: The Statements of Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/opinion/18noe.html
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Default 20th June 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Abou Sandal View Post
Here are official statements:

Israel will try to transfer over a million more Palestinian into Lebanon


Here is a little article made by a serious source:

Israel will try to transfer over a million more Palestinian into Lebanon


Here is a very well conducted report of a study,documented by Israeli official sources and statements.(And there is also a public poll)

Israel will try to transfer over a million more Palestinian into Lebanon


Please,do not take it like i'm trying to show off or score some points here.Read very well those references.They are really worth reading if you really aren't familiar with the subject,like you said.You can also ask friends for confirmation,or google about the issue.It's not a secret anymore that Israelis are looking for a way to transfer "Israeli Arabs"

Here is very short summary of those links you provided.

From the top:

#1

"There is certainly abundant evidence that Zionists contemplated transfer of the Arab population of Palestine prior to the War of Independence, but there is no evidence that transfer became public policy, and most advocates had in mind voluntary transfer with compensation. Transfer of the Arabs of Palestine was contemplated in private almost from the outset of the Zionist enterprise, but it was to be a voluntary transfer, and the ideas were generally not made public."

The there are quotes by:

Theodore Herzl dated 06/12/1895
Eli'ezer Kaplan dated 08/1937
Berl Katznelson dated 1938
Joseph Weitz dated 6/22/1941 (Interesting date, btw. Just a coincidence?)
David Ben Gurion dated 12/19/1947
Moshe Sharret dated 8/18/1948


Those quotes definitely may make one think that there is upcoming transfer of million(s?) of Palestinians to Lebanon and other Arab countries. However by its own admission your source states that it is not matter of Israeli policy but rather personal opinions of number of prominent Jews.


#2

"The idea of a 'state for Jews' neutralises the right of some five million Palestinian refugees to return to what is now Israel," Abdel-Halim Kandil, former editor-in-chief of opposition weekly al-Karama told IPS. "It would also subject Arabs resident in Israel to the possibility of expulsion at any moment."

This link is an opinion piece.

Now, does it really have anything new here and does it confirm your opinion that upcoming transfer of million(s?) of Palestinians to Lebanon is imminent?

Israel always denied right of return. Does it really mean that Israeli Arabs will be expelled into Lebanon or elsewhere? If so, I do not see how.

"It must be clear to everyone that the state of Israel is a national homeland for Jewish people," she [Tsipi Livni] said.

Is it really new or unusual? Wasn't that whole purpose for coming back? But how does it mean that remaining Arabs will be expelled? Isn't Israel Jewish state today? Do you see Arabs or Christians or Muslims being expelled? I do not.


"Israel hopes to exploit the situation [like Gaza wall destruction] ...to bring about calls by the international community for the resettlement of Palestinian refugees in Sinai,"

That I find plausible but as quiet desire only. In reality it is only possible to implement if Egypt (I stress, Egypt) will start war against Israel and Hamas will get involved. The same idea would probably be with Jordan and WB. But let's face it, how likely is that? Not very.


"Such a move would only encourage notions of religious exclusivity and lead to more conflict and intolerance in the Middle East"

This one is complete nonsense. You do not need to have Israel if you are looking for examples of religious or sectarian intolerance in the Middle East. It is your very intolerance, which forces Israelis to be suspicious of potential fifth column. When in Rome do what Romans do.


#3

"Piling their furniture and personal belongings into a truck, the last residents of Yanoun abandoned their West Bank village on October 18, 2002. "Our life here is more bitter than hell," said one villager, lamenting years of attacks, recently intensified, from Israeli settlers living nearby. Over the past months, rampaging bands had smashed windows, destroyed water tanks, burned the village's electric generator, stolen sheep, beaten villagers and shot at workers in the fields.(1) The Israeli government implicitly endorsed this act of ethnic cleansing, failing to return the Palestinians to their homes, or even to condemn the settlers' aggression verbally. To the contrary, in Yanoun as elsewhere, the police and army have sided openly with the marauding settlers. Five village men subsequently returned to the village with the help of peace activists, but it is unclear how long they will be able to hold out."

This one if true is very disturbing. However, now one detail. Peace activists and extremists are Israeli citizens. So, you have both sides represented here, yet you see only one.

Again, I do not condone it but do you think Intifada is one-sided process? Why do you think that you should not have repercussions to your actions ever? Quick quiz: who started summer war of 2006 between Israel and Lebanon?


"In the early 1980s, Rabbi Meir Kahane ..."

Why is there need to refer to the party outlawed in Israel? Do you really think its statements are correct reflection of official Israeli policy?


-----------------

To conclude.

Thank you for the info. I find it very interesting.

Now, facts and opinions you offer may indeed convince one to believe what you believe in and also may not. It depends on your bias and mine.


Here is a bit of practical approach.

1. Please, explain how is it politically possible for Israel to expel million(s?) of people?
2. Please, show how is it physically possible?


Thank you again.
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