Israel: what is the REALISTIC solution?

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by JOlsson

That's because you don't see the problem that you're part of. I see no difference between your opinion and any Israeli who want Israel to border the river Jordan and being devoid of Arab Palestinians.

It is not about roads, it's about the commitment towards a two-state solution.

IMHO Israel cannot and will never accept a 2 states solution because it goes against its national defensive strategy.

Fact is the link between the west bank and Gaza is viewed by its strategy analysts as the danger that it always has in mind:Cutting the land in 2 halfs from its center.

Should that risk exist,Israel would become at high risk.

Should Israel be cut in half by its thin center,it will be military defeated.

[kappa273]

in my opinion, Israel will fail under the demographic pressure...

even if peace is signed, israel is a racist state where jews are considered 1st class citizens and the others are 2nd or even 3rd class..

within less than 30 years, the arab israelis will outnumber the israeli jews.. add to that the fact that jewish immigration away from Israel has been greater than towards israel, this is why we heard minister like Lieberman asking for ethnic and religious cleansing...

i said in the prior paragraph "even if peace is signed"... i think this is far fetched... the israelis are not interested in peace (or at least 95% of the population)... they have built a militaristic society and the only way to keep like that is through perpetual state of war... in addition, the country relies on help from the jewish diaspora and the US government... these would stop immediately after the state of war is reversed...

on top of this, the israelis are aware of the demographic problem they are facing and only in a state of war can they have plans of population transfer in order for the jews to remain the majority in israel..

kappa

[Random]

Originally Posted by Abufijli

That is a myth, Israel is not strong enough to stay here forever, and all the arabs know that the only way to deal with it is by force, what is taken by force can only be taken back by force. Peace for Israel=destruction, they know that and hat is why they are working hard against such a thing, who in their right mind would reject the Arab peace proposal? Unless you are hell bent on expanding.

As for the Indians, and the Aboriginies in Australia, they have every right to fight for their land, and how are they living today? They do not exist in America or Australia, they are a people who have been conquered, murdered, and wiped from existence, is that a good life?

The maine cause for imigration away from Israel is the never ending war (not that such an imigration threatens Israel's existence in any way). Israel is a state, its ultimate goal is in fact peace for its citizens. Hamas is a militant group, war is what justifies it existence. So it really is the other way around. Besides that, is Israel really hell bent on expanding? Yeah maybe it was in 1984, today's Israel willingly withdrew from Gaza a few years ago and will gladly keep the land they have as long as they're not attcked.

[JOlsson]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

Israel cannot and will never accept a 2 states solution because it goes against its national defensive strategy.

Fact is the link between the west bank and Gaza is viewed by its strategy analysts as the danger that it always has in mind:Cutting the land in 2 halfs from its center.

Should that risk exist,Israel would become at high risk.

Should Israel be cut in half by its thin center,it will be military defeated.

You don't accept a two-state 'solution' unless it can be used to destroy Israel and Israel will not support a two-state solution that will be used to destroy them. Do you see that the problem is not about roads?

[Abou Sandal]

Originally Posted by JOlsson

You don't accept a two-state 'solution' unless it can be used to destroy Israel and Israel will not support a two-state solution that will be used to destroy them. Do you see that the problem is not about roads?

I didn't say that at all.Why are you deforming my words?

I said that Israel refuses this option because one of the reasons is that the Israeli high command considers the 2 state solution as a strategic threat and a situation that shall be prevented at any cost, because it puts Israel at a high risk of strategic exposure and military defeat.

It's them that you should convince,not me...yiii...

[JOlsson]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

I didn't say that at all.Why are you deforming my words?

I said that Israel refuses this option because one of the reasons is that the Israeli high command considers the 2 state solution as a strategic threat and a situation that shall be prevented at any cost, because it puts Israel at a high risk of strategic exposure and military defeat.

I was under the impression that you didn't support a two-state solution. If you do support a two-state solution, I apologise.

It's them that you should convince,not me...yiii...

When I meet Israelis that oppose a two-state solution I will ask them.

[ArabJew]

Originally Posted by Abufijli

That is a myth, Israel is not strong enough to stay here forever, and all the arabs know that the only way to deal with it is by force, what is taken by force can only be taken back by force.

When exactly did Egypt re-conquer Sinai peninsula? oh, right, we agreed to return it to the last centimeter to egypt as part of the peace agreements. interesting.

Originally Posted by Abufijli

Peace for Israel=destruction, they know that and hat is why they are working hard against such a thing, who in their right mind would reject the Arab peace proposal? Unless you are hell bent on expanding.

there are two very wrong things with the arab peace initiative:
(A) it is a saudi creation/initiative, not a palestinian one. in particular hamas does not support it and will not accept it. the saudis are promising something they simply cannot deliver. they know it, we know it.
(B) but "just to be on the safe side", syria sabotaged it, with changes to the 'right of return' clauses and tying it with the golan heights issue.
the ambiguity of this clause is the root of all evil, so to speak. someone is playing a cruel game on palestinian refugees, leading them to what will be eventually a civil war which would make the lebanese one pale in comparison. that's not the way to guarantee them a safe and happy life after all the abuse they've taken, from israel and arab countries alike.

now is not a good time to discuss these things, try to keep that in mind though when things calm down.

[ArabJew]

Originally Posted by JOlsson

When I meet Israelis that oppose a two-state solution I will ask them.

i strongly oppose a two state solution - it will solve nothing and only serve to create one or more non-viable states. this calculation includes variations of 'safe passage' between the strip and the bank. a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza even if linked is not a viable solution to the refugee problem. it simply cannot hold them, even under the ludicrous assumption that the world will invest scores of billions of dollars and monitor that they do get invested properly.

to see why this will never work, consider this: what form will palestine take? what will be its ideology, that bonds it together? how will that ideology contain peace agreement with opposition to israel, either nationalistic or islamic?
what form will israel take? what will be its ideology, that bonds it together? how will that ideology contain peace agreement with opposition to israel, either nationalistic or islamic?
(on our behalf, i can guarantee that at most 3% of israelis harbor expansionist dreams, btw, the entire left-right axis here revolves around palestinian territories. please cut that 'nile to furat' bs out of this discussion)

try to play this script with various possible ideologies - islamist, secular nationalistic, pan-arabist, pan-syrianist, confessionalist and westernist. post your results here, i'm interested in others going through that mental exercise.

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by ArabJew

i strongly oppose a two state solution - it will solve nothing and only serve to create one or more non-viable states. this calculation includes variations of 'safe passage' between the strip and the bank. a palestinian state in the west bank and gaza even if linked is not a viable solution to the refugee problem. it simply cannot hold them, even under the ludicrous assumption that the world will invest scores of billions of dollars and monitor that they do get invested properly.

to see why this will never work, consider this: what form will palestine take? what will be its ideology, that bonds it together? how will that ideology contain peace agreement with opposition to israel, either nationalistic or islamic?
what form will israel take? what will be its ideology, that bonds it together? how will that ideology contain peace agreement with opposition to israel, either nationalistic or islamic?
(on our behalf, i can guarantee that at most 3% of israelis harbor expansionist dreams, btw, the entire left-right axis here revolves around palestinian territories. please cut that 'nile to furat' bs out of this discussion)

try to play this script with various possible ideologies - islamist, secular nationalistic, pan-arabist, pan-syrianist, confessionalist and westernist. post your results here, i'm interested in others going through that mental exercise.

If you oppose the two state solution, what are you supporting then ? A non-jewish and secular state where all citizens are equal and have the same rights and duties ? A state where an Arab Jew or an Arab Muslim or an Arab Christian can be President or Prime Minister ? If it is what you're supporting, good then. Because this is what I think the best solution (two state solution seems to me not really a viable solution).

If not, I don't understand how you're supporting a peace settlement.

PS : Don't bother with the various possible ideologies because it's just speculating for the sake of speculating. Replace the current jewish state with a secular state. Implement a good and fair socio-economic policy. You'll see then that with peace, we'll be able to build something like the E.U. in the middle-east.

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by JOlsson

That's because you don't see the problem that you're part of. I see no difference between your opinion and any Israeli who want Israel to border the river Jordan and being devoid of Arab Palestinians.

It is not about roads, it's about the commitment towards a two-state solution.

Instead of getting all philosophcal on me answer my simple question, how can a a 2 state solution work if Gaza and the West Bank are seperated and unattached? Add to that the fact that the West bank is dotted with illegal settlements.