Israel: what is the REALISTIC solution?

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by Abou Sandal

There is only one solution:"Rights"

Outside this basic and just solution,the conflict will stay for as long as it will take.

And ultimately,we will get back our rights.One way or another.

Thank you Abou.

This is indeed the only peaceful existing solution : juxtaposition of rights. Lebanese have rights, palestinians have rights, israelis have concerns.

The solution is not that difficult to reach and we're losing big time and we're wasting too much blood. Aren't we all ashamed ? Aren't the israelis, in particular, ashamed ?

The first and unconditional step to take - for every belligerent - is to recognize that each human being is equal and each human being has the same rights and duties as the others, including lebanese, palestinian and israelis.

What's happening in Gaza, the total support that the israeli people is giving to its government, show to us unfortunately that at least for now, israelis don't accept that palestinians (or "Arabs") are human beings just like them.

I'd say to them wake up before it's too late. You're digging your own grave.You're doing nothing but bringing hatred and resentment which will lead to another decades of wars, slaughters and misfortunes.

Israelis, today you're in a position which allows you to negotiate. Accept the fact that all the people of the middle-east are human beings. Give back their rights to those people and get in exchange what you're asking for : your "security". Tomorrow, you may not be in a position which allows you to negotiate.

[mickey117]

Let's be ultra-realistic.
Israel isin't gonna last for ever. Israel is the 51st state of america, the day America weakens or falls appart, Israel will follow shortly. So everything depends on how long the american empire will stay on it's feet, and as I see it, it's not gonna last very long...

[loubnaniTO]

For those who are saying Israel will be eliminated... help me out here, tell me how do you think it will be eliminated. Is it going to implode on itself. Are we gonna wake up one morning and see the whole israeli nation packing and leaving? or is it by war, a nuclear attack on Israel? or it is an economic bankrupcty?
thanks.

[joseph_lubnan]

To begin with, we should stop calling it broadly as the Arab-Israeli Conflict. We should recognize that there is a Palestinian-Israeli conflict, a Lebanese-Israeli conflict, a Syrian-Israeli conflict, and so on...

There will be no real and lasting solution before the overhaul of regimes in the region and their real evolution towards a practical form of democracy and people representation. Once that happens, a form of lasting peace can be crafted.

Leaving the rest of the regimes alone and focusing on Lebanon, the same still applies. We need to have a sovereign modern governance system in Lebanon that can then craft its peace with Israel. Our best bet as Lebanese is to focus on that.

[taifoon]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

To begin with, we should stop calling it broadly as the Arab-Israeli Conflict. We should recognize that there is a Palestinian-Israeli conflict, a Lebanese-Israeli conflict, a Syrian-Israeli conflict, and so on...

wallah mazbout 100 bel 100. I think one is better off rearranging few road maps based on this simple insight only.

There will be no real and lasting solution before the overhaul of regimes in the region and their real evolution towards a practical form of democracy and people representation. Once that happens, a form of lasting peace can be crafted.

Leaving the rest of the regimes alone and focusing on Lebanon, the same still applies. We need to have a sovereign modern governance system in Lebanon that can then craft its peace with Israel. Our best bet as Lebanese is to focus on that.

I doubt it has to do with Arab regime's formulas. A Faraonian regime in Egypt and a royal dynasty in Jordan do already have peace with Israel. The same goes practically for all the rest. Those countries were smart enough to get back all they wanted from Israel, without giving it back a nail of what it economically wanted or hoped for. They had no problems ditching all the rest of their 3ouroubian 'brothers'.. I think it's about time we also do the same, because I am quite confident that neither the syrians nor the palestinians when their peace bell rings, would pay much concern to OUR Lebanese-Israeli cause. Regimes brands don't make much difference here.

[ArabJew]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

No no no, we want all jews to stay in Palestine regardless of 1 or 2 states. But the Language that you speak right now is not the same one that The Israeli governments speak.

The government speaks the language of those who chose it. when those who chose it are ignorant of possibilities, how can there be an alternative?
but this goes both ways - all of those who take a stance to make a stand in the israeli-palestinian conflict, don't make this stand. Not KSA, not Iran, not lebanon, not syria, not israel and not hamas.

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

The israeli government is the one commiting the massacres and Building the illegal settlements In the remaining palestinian territories and calling themselves Jewsih state and Having thier PM talking about kicking all arabs out of Israel a few weeks ago. The jews who are with peace and a One state solution are the ones you usually do not see on TV, they are the ones Protesting against Sabra and Shatilla massacres until today They are the Ones rebuilding palestinain homes bulldozed by the Israeli Gov which refuses to let the Palestinian Properly Vote Or have a building permit nor grant others the right of return And yet many israeli zionists say that the palestinians were not kicked out of palestine and that they left Voluntarly! i dont really understand this argument because if this was the case then what consivable reasons could the israelies have for deniying them the RIGHT of RETURN !!!
(logically if u leave voluntarly then you could return at anytime) While any Jew anywhere in the world (vienna, london, newyork) has a legally enshrined right to go and live in palestine even if they had never been there before or thier great great great great grandfathers HAVE never been there !!!

you're actually mistaken a bit here. many of the leftist israelis are just as anti-arab as the rightwingers. for them, commemorating the nakba is some sort of yuppie self-righteousness act. they nonetheless look down on arabs and on mizrachi jews alike.
war is war, peace is peace. should you be surprised of the things that are done as part of a strategic and tactical war?

but again, this IS a double-edged sword. an application of the right of return is bound to make life hell for everyone here - it seems like those who push it don't pause for a moment to consider it, and refuse a declaratory compromise because it's uncomfortable for them, even if justified in some cases, like the lebanese case.

btw, about half of israel is mizrachi jews, who have no place to go back to, basically.

moreover, perhaps if you look from our angle about how it feels when someone claims that jews in arab countries left willingly to come and dispossess palestinians, when it is a known fact that many of them weren't zionists at all, at least not in the classical/stereotypical sense (and my grandfather probably never will be, too)

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

Since 1948 (when history started for u) israel has had this Policy Of Dis-possetion and still continues until this very day!!! AND the result is that israel has demolished 500 entire palestinian villages inside what became Known as israel.

that part about history starting in 1948 was told with cynicism. infact, certain events of years prior to 1948 are of very much interest to me, and so should they to you, for example the farhud. will you recognize our disaster if we recognize yours?

(further reading, farhud: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud)

[joseph_lubnan]

Originally Posted by taifoon

wallah mazbout 100 bel 100. I think one is better off rearranging few road maps based on this simple insight only.



I doubt it has to do with Arab regime's formulas. A Faraonian regime in Egypt and a royal dynasty in Jordan do already have peace with Israel. The same goes practically for all the rest. Those countries were smart enough to get back all they wanted from Israel, without giving it back a nail of what it economically wanted or hoped for. They had no problems ditching all the rest of their 3ouroubian 'brothers'.. I think it's about time we also do the same, because I am quite confident that neither the syrians nor the palestinians when their peace bell rings, would pay much concern to OUR Lebanese-Israeli cause. Regimes brands don't make much difference here.

Taifoon, regarding the regime formula issue, the question would be in "Faraonian" regimes and Royal Dynasty how can a lasting peace be guaranteed beyond the Dynasty and "Faronian" rule when these come to their end? Long term lasting peace can only be crafted through governments that represent the people and evolve with them. That was my point, although I still think the fact that they (Egypt, Jordan) have a workable peace formula for today is still a commendable thing...

Regarding Lebanon, I would like to repeat what I said in another thread earlier: Today direct negotiations with Israel on the Lebanese-Israeli conflict is a non-starter. FM has to be against it for the sake of its public locally and regionally, and that's a shame. FM was even against what GMA said regarding joint discussion along with Syria and reiterated that "Lebanon will be the last bla bla bla". Hezbollah is against it categorically for reasons we all know. Even GMA was being careful and discussed them only in the context of Syrian negotiations! Such direct negotiations only have partial support in the Christian and Druze communities today. more broadly, Lebanon cannot negotiate with Israel directly, because Lebanon as a government doesn't exit. It is a bunch of tribes fighting with each other and in many cases beholden to foreign interests, how can they negotiate if they do not unite, and Israel knows that very well. It negotiates with some of the tribes when it serves her needs, like the recent negotiations with Hezbollah on the prisoners... You see for Lebanon to negotiate directly with Israel it needs to be a country first with real governance and a sovereign government. Today it is nothing more than a fragmented farm and in my opinion the main reason for that is the Hezbollah weapons, although there are many other important reasons as well, the arms are the biggest obstacle in the way, and resolving that issue is the beginning of the road to a real nation.

[elias-aj]

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

more broadly, Lebanon cannot negotiate with Israel directly, because Lebanon as a government doesn't exit. It is a bunch of tribes fighting with each other and in many cases beholden to foreign interests, how can they negotiate if they do not unite, and Israel knows that very well. It negotiates with some of the tribes when it serves her needs, like the recent negotiations with Hezbollah on the prisoners... You see for Lebanon to negotiate directly with Israel it needs to be a country first with real governance and a sovereign government.

I agree with you on this one. Lebanese need a social contract. Accept to live together, accept the fact that we're lebanese citizens, holding rights but having duties, build a state regulating and preserving people's freedom etc.

Being united on a political level would strenghten our position.

Originally Posted by joseph_lubnan

Today it is nothing more than a fragmented farm and in my opinion the main reason for that is the Hezbollah weapons, although there are many other important reasons as well, the arms are the biggest obstacle in the way, and resolving that issue is the beginning of the road to a real nation.

On this point I disagree with you. You know that I don't want HA weapons to stay forever. But those weapons are not a reason for anything. Those weapons are an aspect of our issues. I may even say that those weapons are a consequence of many issues :

- the first being our issues with Israel which gave birth to those weapons and gave to them a legal ground ;
- the other issue being our inability to negotiate and implement a social contract between us, leading to the lack of confidence between the different lebanese communities.

Let's say that HA disarms tomorrow but we don't manage to move on, to unite, to get rid of the feudal and sectarian aspects of our democracy. We may enjoy some another lebanese economic miracle during some years, let's say decades. But the day after tomorrow, another regional or international crisis may rise and our country will again be what it used to be between 1975 and 1990. Anyway, I'll stop here because it's quite off topic.

[mickey117]

Originally Posted by loubnaniTO

For those who are saying Israel will be eliminated... help me out here, tell me how do you think it will be eliminated. Is it going to implode on itself. Are we gonna wake up one morning and see the whole israeli nation packing and leaving? or is it by war, a nuclear attack on Israel? or it is an economic bankrupcty?
thanks.

Well, the way Israel is going to be eliminated is surely not by an other holocaust. We're not going to kill them all, we don't have the same blood-thirsty mentality they have... When the US's power weakens, Israel will start to fade away step by step, some clashes might happen during this period, but no huge massacres.
Let's point out a thing here by the way, 99% of the Israelis have a second passport, so they can easily go to other places if Israel is no more, that is a factor that makes Israel's disappearance a lot easier

[The Jade]

Originally Posted by mickey117

Well, the way Israel is going to be eliminated is surely not by an other holocaust. We're not going to kill them all, we don't have the same blood-thirsty mentality they have... When the US's power weakens, Israel will start to fade away step by step, some clashes might happen during this period, but no huge massacres.
Let's point out a thing here by the way, 99% of the Israelis have a second passport, so they can easily go to other places if Israel is no more, that is a factor that makes Israel's disappearance a lot easier

Israel may rely a lot on the US, but it also relies greatly on its diaspora.
Just like the lebanese do.

Knowing that a lot of lebanese hold another passport, might as well say that Lebanon will fade away with time.

Israel is here to stay, whether we like it or not, its diaspora will do anything not to make it go away, all we need to do is try to find a way to live with it.