Israel: what is the REALISTIC solution?

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by ArabJew

wait, lemme get this straight - first you make second-class citizens of us, use us as hostages and victims to your failures to destroy zionism, enforce numerus clausus upon us, kill us in random sprees, fire us for no reason from government positions, generally discriminate us and then kick us out, and now, when all of the sudden we fend for ourselves, you offer us to come back as equals, and expect us to take you seriously??? (something which, btw, most iraqis admit they can't provide)

no, wait, it's even better - as TripoliSunni said in another thread here - you expect us to FIGHT zionism!

but, granted, back then it was nationalistic/pan-arabist regimes... now we're talking about islamism... ah! dhimmitude! yes, i longe for dhimmitude, it has plenty to offer me. after all, lebanon is rushing towards dhimmitude for its christians, so maybe we should embrace that.

Yes im sure ARABS are first rate citizens in Israel :)
So you want a two state solution, so be it. Our rules are Above and they are Righteous and Fair from our point of view and we will accept nothing less.

As for the citizens of the Racist Jewish state See it goes like this:

-1st are the european Jews (white people) have ruled the country ever since it was made.
-2nd are the orientals ARAB jews (Not equal to the above)
-3rd are the black jews (ignored and forgotten)
-4th are the arab non-jews. (hated and dispised with much inferior rights).

[Dalzi]

Originally Posted by ArabJew

wait, lemme get this straight - first you make second-class citizens of us, use us as hostages and victims to your failures to destroy zionism, enforce numerus clausus upon us, kill us in random sprees, fire us for no reason from government positions, generally discriminate us and then kick us out, and now, when all of the sudden we fend for ourselves, you offer us to come back as equals, and expect us to take you seriously??? (something which, btw, most iraqis admit they can't provide)

I love it how you always like to come out as victims. Always fascinating to see. What's the difference between zionists and nazzis? Only that the Nazzis are much sweeter. No one kicked you out, you're too racist to the point where you can only live with Jews. You even have 'jew buses' and 'jew taxi drivers'. Don't come to me with the sweet talk. The Palestinians weclomed those who first came and you stabbed. Criminals hypocrites backstabbers liars and thieves.

So can i conclude that other humans are no longer gentiles? lol Funny when a zionist comes to talk about 'equality'. You need to give it first, then you take it.

no, wait, it's even better - as TripoliSunni said in another thread here - you expect us to FIGHT zionism!

Zionism not Judaism.

but, granted, back then it was nationalistic/pan-arabist regimes... now we're talking about islamism... ah! dhimmitude! yes, i longe for dhimmitude, it has plenty to offer me. after all, lebanon is rushing towards dhimmitude for its christians, so maybe we should embrace that.

Again, Lebanon shawke b3ainak ;). We do not 'beleive' in Lebanon the Islamic state, you can play that dirty game somewhere else, maybe on an LF forum. Had we wanted it for ourselves only, we wouldn't have allied with Christians. Lebanon is beautiful and lovely as it is. Each can practice whatever he likes in his own home. Don't mistake the Shiaa HA for the Zionists.

[ArabJew]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

As for the Jews I believe that it was the right of the Jews to seek a safe haven and not be exterminated by those racist murderous Europeans and it was their right to seek self-determination BUT not at the expense of another people and not by policies of dis-possetion AND Israelis should understand that they will never become a normal nation unless they admit this and that the exiled Jews and Palestinians have to share the same fate.

actually, you're bursting into an open door. when my grandfather came here after he fled iraq in 1950, he quickly found friends among Israeli arabs, and not coincidentally, some sense of joint fate as well. he personally strove to make justice as much as his job allowed him to, so that others won't suffer the fate that he did. I acknowledge most palestinians as brothers, if they agree to acknowledge me as same.

but even such recognition is not enough to have a joint fate again. for that to happen, we must agree on a viable framework to share our fate. and it's something that we can't do. neither zionism, nor islamism, nor pan-arabism offers that. what does offer that is lebanese-style confessionalism. but (A) that has never been on the agenda. no palestinian group has ever offered that. it surely isn't on hamas' agenda, which considers israel/palestine dar-al-islam (B) the lebanese model, with better starting conditions, did not deliver. if we try and fail, the resultant civil war would make the lebanese civil war together with all its horrors and futile bloodshed, look like a kindergarden brawl. imagine the war, with scores more tanks, airplanes and (probably) some nukes added.

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

History for me started in the 1920s and not 48 with the Western jewish moving into palestinian lands and Letters between many western politicians regarding the fate of the middle-east...ect.ect.ect...

Let's please agree that prior to the nakba, there was still enough chance to have it both ways, even with Jewish immigration.

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

As for the Jewsih Arab which is Scared of being thrown in the ocean or anywhere else I say YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE WE WANT YOU TO STAY THERE. After all the most peaceful solution remains as the one state solution in this tiny piece of territory in which every person Jew, Muslim and Christian would live as equals with one vote each and would each have the same rights THAT IS THE MOST PEACEFUL SOLUTION BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE.

Again, i ask - if peace in lebanon was not managed to be maintained for long, what makes you think this will work in palestine/israel/joint state?
and furthermore - if we're going for the peaceful option, what's the big issue with the origin of those jews who want to stay and partake in building a joint society? they're already more arabized than you think, btw.

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by ArabJew

actually, you're bursting into an open door. when my grandfather came here after he fled iraq in 1950, he quickly found friends among Israeli arabs, and not coincidentally, some sense of joint fate as well. he personally strove to make justice as much as his job allowed him to, so that others won't suffer the fate that he did. I acknowledge most palestinians as brothers, if they agree to acknowledge me as same.

but even such recognition is not enough to have a joint fate again. for that to happen, we must agree on a viable framework to share our fate. and it's something that we can't do. neither zionism, nor islamism, nor pan-arabism offers that. what does offer that is lebanese-style confessionalism. but (A) that has never been on the agenda. no palestinian group has ever offered that. it surely isn't on hamas' agenda, which considers israel/palestine dar-al-islam (B) the lebanese model, with better starting conditions, did not deliver. if we try and fail, the resultant civil war would make the lebanese civil war together with all its horrors and futile bloodshed, look like a kindergarden brawl. imagine the war, with scores more tanks, airplanes and (probably) some nukes added.



Let's please agree that prior to the nakba, there was still enough chance to have it both ways, even with Jewish immigration.



Again, i ask - if peace in lebanon was not managed to be maintained for long, what makes you think this will work in palestine/israel/joint state?
and furthermore - if we're going for the peaceful option, what's the big issue with the origin of those jews who want to stay and partake in building a joint society? they're already more arabized than you think, btw.

No no no, we want all jews to stay in Palestine regardless of 1 or 2 states. But the Language that you speak right now is not the same one that The Israeli governments speak. The israeli government is the one commiting the massacres and Building the illegal settlements In the remaining palestinian territories and calling themselves Jewsih state and Having thier PM talking about kicking all arabs out of Israel a few weeks ago. The jews who are with peace and a One state solution are the ones you usually do not see on TV, they are the ones Protesting against Sabra and Shatilla massacres until today They are the Ones rebuilding palestinain homes bulldozed by the Israeli Gov which refuses to let the Palestinian Properly Vote Or have a building permit nor grant others the right of return And yet many israeli zionists say that the palestinians were not kicked out of palestine and that they left Voluntarly! i dont really understand this argument because if this was the case then what consivable reasons could the israelies have for deniying them the RIGHT of RETURN !!!
(logically if u leave voluntarly then you could return at anytime) While any Jew anywhere in the world (vienna, london, newyork) has a legally enshrined right to go and live in palestine even if they had never been there before or thier great great great great grandfathers HAVE never been there !!!

Since 1948 (when history started for u) israel has had this Policy Of Dis-possetion and still continues until this very day!!! AND the result is that israel has demolished 500 entire palestinian villages inside what became Known as israel.

[TripolySunni]

another israeli policy that goes by the name of "bulldozing palestinian Homes, uprooting of trees and distruction of crops".

So how does that happen? Well since 1967 when israel conquered the west bank, east jerusalem and GAZA in the six day war, israel has demolished 18,000 palestinian homes (NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE TERRORISTS), in 95% persent of these cases there was ofcourse no security element SO the people were not charged with anything they were just normal citizens And israel for over 40 years now (2 generations) refuses to give palestinians building permits SO houses are demolished every day and it is actually illegal to rebuild them! Palestinians resist this by standing infront of bulldozers (and dying), by throwing rocks (and dying), by chaining themselfs to the houses (and dying). now imagine having your house demolished when your not a criminal and you have'nt done anything wrong and yet you lose your most basic rights , this is the essence of the conflict that foreign jewish people coming into palestine saying: "this is our land EXCLUSEVLY we do not belive in Palestine or the palestinians" THEY dont even mention the word "palestinian" they talk about ARABS in a very GENERAL WAY.

[mehdi soldier]

going by the poll,and particular to those voting that "moderates" from both sides will prevail,let me clarify a few things.by voting that "moderates" from both sides will prevail doesnt mean at all you are a "moderate".if you are voting that option in order to present yourself or your username as a "moderate",then you're only fooling yourself.

secondly,there is no one who recognize "israel" as the (rascist) jewish state that is a "moderate".you can never find "moderates" in a crimanal,rascist,apartheid,nazi and oppressive state.the word "israel" and "moderation" are contradictory.or those two placed togther in the same line can best be described/sugarcoated as oxymorone.

as for my choice,i am fully convinced that "israel" will have to make way one day.how soon or how late that would be,is irrelevant.it will go.it is not a dream and it is not wishful thinking.it is reality.even if the entire universe stands with "israel" and about 300 million arabs and musims surrounding "israel" are saying:"israel" doesnt belong here,then that state is destined to extinct!am for palestine,where jews,muslims and chrisians and arabs and non arabs can live together in the same country side by side.those who want two state "solution" can do that somewhere else in europe,in hitler's country where jews were said to have been massacred.

[JOlsson]

Realistically, if you're not working for a two-state solution, then you're part of the problem. It is the refusal to accept a two-state solution that have lead to this current mess.

[Ahmad Aown]

[quote]

Originally Posted by ArabJew

actually, you're bursting into an open door. when my grandfather came here after he fled iraq in 1950, .........
but even such recognition is not enough to have a joint fate again.


............., even with Jewish immigration

Have you ever heard of the Khazars?

Jews chose to be NOMADS and we respect their choice. I guess it is too late now for them to change their choice... Nature has taken its course and there is nothing like a Jewish National Homeland in History, it is only in the Minds of those who believe in YEHVA,, and since they (The Jews) Say that Yehva is their GOD and not the Gentiles' (GUYEM), so we do not have to take YEHVA's promise as Credible because we believe that God is for all.

So I think the conflict between us and the Jews s based on two different Criteria, The Jewish Criteria which is a Religious criteria, and a Historical Criteria which is the Rightuous one. and Logiclly speaking there is neither a Match between the Two Criteria Nor a Compromise.

I don't think it is a matter of Resistance vs a Jewish State, I believe it is a "Do or Die" situation, and the conflict is going to continue untill one will do and the other will Die.

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by shadow1

This is the kind of problem that will go on for at least another hundred years. It's not only a human and a political problem but its religious dimension makes it nearly impossible to resolve.

Militarily speaking, the only way this is going to be resloved is by mutual annhiliation if and when the arabs get to build a nuclear weapon.

what will defeat Isreal in the long run is not a resistance here and another there but few other things:
1- Yehwa tricked the Israelis and promised them a land surrounded by people who will hate it until the end of time no matter what veneer of tolerance and acceptance they try to put on it and the hatred is mutual if for different reasons. How long could Israel exist knowing that which ever direction it looks it can only see anger and hatred. Have its peace treaties with arab countries chnaged the mind of the people in those countries? No and never. This in time will have an effect on the moral strngth of its people and foce them to migrate.

2-The arabs have a much more capacity at enduring misery than jews inspite of the latter long history of being persecuted. so they (the arabs) can put up with yet more decades of suffering while every killing Israel makes undermines it moral standing more and more even as it maintains its military superiority. In this department The world will live with many more decades of seeing Israeli army next to corpses of arab children but in the end even the world will begin to question its own values.

3- The demographic bomb ticking inside israel. In few decades the Arabs inside Israel will outnumber the jews or at least undermine the jewish character it tries to build for itself. Once the arabs get to make up 40% of the population that will begin the road to oblivion. This is more or less the sole factor that will destroy it.

4- Peace with Israel could bring its demise forward by at least 3 decades.

5- The role of the resistances is to keep the rage flame burning in the hearts and souls of people and with a little bit of godly help the task isn't all that impossible.

How will it all end? Armageddon
My guess 2060 should be the beginning of the end

Takhanta 2060, you need to be more optimistic than this, my answer would be approximately 2020-30, so we might get to see the day, grab the popcorn, sit back and watch.

[Abufijli]

Originally Posted by JOlsson

Realistically, if you're not working for a two-state solution, then you're part of the problem. It is the refusal to accept a two-state solution that have lead to this current mess.

How can you be so blind? Take a look at the map and you will get a good isea why a 2 state solution will not work. How will the people of Gaza reach the West Bank? And if you think Israel is going to make them a road you are dreaming, the 2 state solution is just a dream to keep people lost.